From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Walter Alejandro Iglesias Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2010 13:43:37 +0200 Message-ID: <8739usq846.fsf@roquesor.com> References: <10954D02-E217-49F3-8824-757DA34074AB@gmail.com> <83zkxzakr0.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqyva8ms.fsf@gnu.org> <878w4mrtdd.fsf@roquesor.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1281095040 5779 80.91.229.12 (6 Aug 2010 11:44:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:44:00 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 06 13:43:59 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OhLLD-0000H7-Bz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 13:43:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58608 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OhLLC-0005O1-P2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 07:43:58 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=47415 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OhLL5-0005Ns-HJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 07:43:53 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OhLL3-00013a-VA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 07:43:50 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:57748) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OhLL3-00013O-Kw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 07:43:49 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OhLL1-0000BY-2V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 13:43:47 +0200 Original-Received: from 49.7.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es ([95.17.7.49]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 13:43:47 +0200 Original-Received: from eloi by 49.7.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 13:43:47 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 49 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 49.7.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.2 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:nCaqDuwr0/OM6dwDVuuJNZUYKZM= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:128375 Archived-At: Lennart Borgman writes: > On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Barry Fishman wrote: >> >> Since I started using Emacs I have seen many window systems come and >> go.  What people call "Modern" window interfaces are just that, the >> currently popular window system behavior soon to be replaced by >> something else. > > Is not this rather one of the problems with free software? I think > most users would like a stable window system standard interface in > this regard. The term "freedom" is a double-edged knife. Young developers could think "Why might I pay attention to what was done along the years? Why might I pay attention to what others have done?". Popular gnu/linux desktops and its applications are a good example. Most of them seem trying to "replace" (and hide) the base system instead of "complement" it. Then final users think even the terminal is halfway obsolescence. They may think it is the better way to attract new users. But, in the long term, pathetically looking like a windows-macosx fake just get the opposite. Mostly if the graphical application returns a crash popup window. A clever new user takes in care the compatibility-universality of a new interface (new for him) at time to decide if suffering or not its "learning curve". So gnu (not just desktop environments) are in a dilemma. To keep coherent with unix (gnu itself) base system tradition or with fashion (what people understand for "modern system"). With the famous big graphical applications to edit images, videos, 3d animations. etc (what people understand for "professional tools") the user must learn hundred of submenus with crazy named obscure functions (I know because my wife is a graphical designer). The user "eats" all this shit thinking to do a good investment. But, more or late he/she are fired of his/her job and in the new job he/she find he/herself in front of other famous application that do the same, or the same app in other system, or an update of the same app, but the stuff of functions that take he/she month to learn, have a different name or are in other place in the menu (i.e. take a look to the "exclusive windoze" 3DMax).