From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: "Eric Schulte" Subject: Re: Org expert mode? Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 14:41:41 -0700 Message-ID: <8739muac16.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87vczre1eb.fsf@altern.org> <20110310.222520.32509650.joost@snow.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Return-path: Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=43952 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PxncJ-0005qp-4C for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 16:41:56 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PxncD-00088o-MT for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 16:41:54 -0500 Received: from mail-pv0-f169.google.com ([74.125.83.169]:34064) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PxncD-00088N-9U for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 16:41:49 -0500 Received: by pvg4 with SMTP id 4so540662pvg.0 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:41:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20110310.222520.32509650.joost@snow.nl> (Joost Helberg's message of "Thu, 10 Mar 2011 22:25:20 +0100 (CET)") List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: Joost Helberg Cc: bzg@altern.org, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Hi, I tend to agree with Joost's sentiments. In my opinion the current Org-mode---despite all of the power lurking just beneath the surface---is entirely usable as a very simple plain text notes buffer. The user need know nothing more than how to press tab on a headline to expand-contract it's contents. This is how I try to introduce Org-mode to new users. "Just think of it as plain text notes, and whenever you realize you want a new feature, look in the manual... chances are someone has already implemented it." Best -- Eric Joost Helberg writes: > Bastien and others, > > When I worked in Hoofddorp in the early 90's, I travelled 2.5 hours by > train every day. I reserved half of the train-time every single day > for a year checking out GNU Emacs stuff I didn't understand on my > notebook. This helped me a lot in going places (aka major modes, elisp > code and, later, customizations) I didn't dare visiting before. > > The same is true for most of the *Customization* stuff. Seeing things > beyond your boundaries of understanding satisfies curiosity. Checking out > stuff you don't completely understand is part of the Emacs journey. A > journey which is a lot more exciting than any other virtual software > inspired journey I've encountered. > > The creation of an `Expert mode' will make the exploration of new > features `by accident' or by ambitious curiosity less likely. I think > introducing an expert mode (is the plain and simple org-mode not > already quite for experts already?) a bad thing. > > Then the semantics of `expert' come around. Expert in what field? > Organisation? Elisp? Time-clocking? Org-mode key bindings? There must > be over 5 different experts in using org-mode, which may be even > overlapping. > > Personally I don't mind superfluous messages in GNU Emacs, if any. > They disappear fast enough and don't appear to slow down things; > though I might be wrong here of course. > > Last, but not least, org-mode users are honest people, at least to > themselves they are, they must be! Many of them will have trouble > admitting they're an expert in org-mode; they won't tick the > box. They'll miss features they would otherwise try. > > Org-mode is the best invention since sliced bread and if not, GNU > Emacs is, keep up the good work! > > many regards, > > Joost Helberg > >>>>>> "Bastien" == Bastien writes: > > Subject: [O] Org expert mode? > > From: Bastien > > To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > > Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:05:32 +0100 > > > Hi all, > > > Org tries to stay as simple/accessible as possible for newbie and as > > complete/flexible as possible for power users. > > > The documentation and the UI are central for this: the documentation > > should promote core features, document complex ones, and give pointers > > on how to hack Org -- it does that already IMO; the UI should give > > access to core features and give hints on complex ones, so that the > > user can learn more. > > > I've just added the ability to run a custom function for bulk agenda > > actions (thanks to Puneeth for the patch!) This is clearly for power > > users -- or those who are willing to take the time to find functions > > that we might document in Worg. > > > So I naturally thought of something like an "Org Expert mode": when > > turned off, the UI would *not* give access to complex features and > > perhaps display more helpful messages on simple ones; when turned on, > > Org would have a less verbose UI (think of the C-c C-e window, do we > > really want to *read* it all the times?) and give access to all the > > complex features. > > > This is really just a call for ideas/comments -- I wonder if people > > already came accross such an idea and and what they think. > > > I'm myself not convinced: it's a good thing that Org doesn't need an > > Expert mode so far, it means newbies are not confused by the UI, and > > experts are not frustrated by it either. But I expect neat features > > can emerge from the discussion. > > > Thanks for your thoughts! > > > -- > > Bastien