From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: launch a program in an arbitrary frame Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 21:18:15 +0200 Message-ID: <87380l9sw8.fsf@nl106-137-147.student.uu.se> References: <8xxwpxyducd.fsf@village.keycorner.org> <8xxr3o5ea34.fsf@village.keycorner.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1437247217 29771 80.91.229.3 (18 Jul 2015 19:20:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 19:20:17 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jul 18 21:20:07 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZGXeY-0003yM-Jo for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 18 Jul 2015 21:20:06 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49456 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZGXeX-0003MX-Sw for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 18 Jul 2015 15:20:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38290) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZGXeL-0003MM-0j for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jul 2015 15:19:56 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZGXeF-0007vp-Lk for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jul 2015 15:19:52 -0400 Original-Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:49038) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZGXeF-0007un-C8 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jul 2015 15:19:47 -0400 Original-Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZGXeE-0003q6-3G for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jul 2015 21:19:46 +0200 Original-Received: from nl106-137-156.student.uu.se ([130.243.137.156]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 2015 21:19:46 +0200 Original-Received: from embe8573 by nl106-137-156.student.uu.se with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 2015 21:19:46 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-Lines: 140 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: nl106-137-156.student.uu.se Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:y90u1YvH70K4EMbmF/e++jue3LY= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:105815 Archived-At: Hikaru Ichijyo writes: > The whole reason I got into Emacs was because I was > hoping it could bring my Internet usage back to the > happy days back when it was almost all text, almost > all done through the keyboard, all in one integrated > environment (no more "mousercize" to use the > Internet). The mouse slows me down and makes me keep > having to move my right arm back and forth. 100% correct. > And on any kind of Unix system, adjusting any > setting is usually done with text files in a text > editor. Emacs just seemed like it could bring it all > together, system administration and Internet usage, > and make the mouse only necessary for programs that > truly need to be graphical. I'm gradually realizing > that, and it's a really elegant way of working. Yes :) > The AJAX sites like Facebook still need a thick > browser like Firefox. I ran into a message thread in > another forum where people were talking about > integrating full WebKit suite capabilities into an > Emacs browser, but Stallman was against it. > > To which, I say...GOOD!!! I'm glad the voice of > reason (ok, the voice of RMS) is prevailing here! > The last thing Emacs needs is for the twenty ton > bloat that now affects thick web browsers to come > like a snake into paradise and afflict us all. 1) Of course, I don't like Ajax and absolutely not Facebook, however adding support for things one doesn't like will have the effect of not alienating people who do like those things. If we go the extra mile they (perhaps) won't be instantly turned off/afraid, and in time and gradually they will be exposed to different things through the back door, and in even more time perhaps that will make them drop the Facebook etc. hysteria and become independent computer users. 2) This "bloat" thing is often based on a misconception that stems from the Windoze and accursed Apple systems which have desktops that are relentless in bugging you and driving you crazy with popups, icons - all kinds of visual noise. To be honest, the thrice-accursed Linux world has not been immune to this and many popular distros have walked the same sad path. The reaction to this has been the wish for a "minimal", "streamlined", and "clean" system. But just because you have tons of features, software, and power, that doesn't mean your system has to be bulky, ill-organized or "dirty"! There is no such correlation. It can be, if the GUI is such that for every piece of software you install, you get another annoying icon, popup, menu, etc. But that is the *GUI* in particular, and not the software toolkit or the system. What you see, don't have to be what (all) you get! Didn't you watch the "Robots in disguise" show as a kid? Here is an example: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/dumps/system.png 'lspath' is a zsh function: lspath () { (($#)) || set '' print -lr -- $^path/*$^@*(N:t) | sort -u } What it does is, it lists all the executables in the user's PATH ("path" is a zsh feature). As you see from the screenshot, that number is 3356! And, if that number is 10 000 or even 100 000, assuming the software is good, the screenshot will look just the same, save for the change of that digit. Adding more things doesn't have to add the "bloat" unless you let it! So it is not "bloated" just because it has features, tools, and power, it is (can be) bloated because the GUI chooses to put all this in your face *all the time*, instead of when you yourself say it is time to use a particular piece of software, at what time that, and only that, is invoked and displayed. > Anyway, Emacs is basically turning into the console > through which I use the Internet and do all things > on my system (and other systems). Yes. Before there was a desktop, there was an editor. The editor was much more powerful, but people couldn't handle all that power. Now, many people that would instinctively use the editor simply do not know there is an alternative to the desktop. It is a sad state. All we can do is do the right thing ourselves. I'm not trying to preach. I believe I can reach. But your mind ain't prepared. I see you when you get there. (Coolio 1997) > Well, that isn't the way Gnus is messing my > windows up. > > It's more like this: > > Say you have three buffers setup with a window > layout you like. You launch Gnus. It brings up its > Group buffer, and so far, you're fine. Then you read > an article, and the whole frame is replaced with > Gnus' Group/Article split -- so much for your window > layout. It's the Group/Article split that seems to > make Gnus incompatible with any kind of window > layout you might be using, so I've just been putting > anything that I care about the layout of in > a separate frame. The Gnus Help and Server buffers > haven't been doing anything bad to me -- they're > just simple single-window screens. To me it sounds like it is the same problem and because of that applying the same solution with different data is a good first step. But, to be exact, you display articles from the summary buffer. Say you have a list of articles. You hit RET. What do you want to happen then, exactly? And what do you want not happening, that is? -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573