From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Shrinking the C core Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 08:15:43 +0200 Message-ID: <8734zqo6eo.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <87ledwx7sh.fsf@yahoo.com> <877cpfybhf.fsf@yahoo.com> <873503y66i.fsf@yahoo.com> <87v8cmft42.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19463"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:9IrK78uPUem8kXosm8Suuu0QXf4= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 07 09:42:53 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qe9fA-0004pz-W0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 09:42:52 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qe9eJ-0000BH-Gj; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 03:41:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qe8J2-0000jL-Ri for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 02:15:56 -0400 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qe8J0-0001N1-5S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 02:15:56 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qe8Ix-0009oY-05 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 08:15:51 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 03:41:58 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310240 Archived-At: Po Lu wrote: >> Yes. There was a time not so long ago when cl.el was banned >> from use in our Lisp code, except for at compile time. >> Our Emacs Lisp was small, simple to understand, and easy to >> learn. Now things in cl-lib.el get used as if they are just >> a normal part of Emacs Lisp. Our language is thus MUCH more >> difficult to understand, perhaps by a factor of somewhere >> between 3 and 10. When perusing even established parts of >> Emacs I groan inwardly every time I encounter one of these >> needless cl-lib features. It stops me dead, forcing me to >> consult doc strings (which are often missing and often >> inadequate even when they are present) or even manuals. > > I agree. The use of generic functions for window system > initialization irks me to no end. The cl-lib features are awesome, especially `cl-loop' but other come to mind as well. It isn't much more complicated than anything else and provides much more expressive power to Elisp. -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal