From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jeremy Bryant Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2024 22:26:47 +0100 Message-ID: <8734p03e94.fsf@jeremybryant.net> References: <7133BE83-064B-43A4-A193-61376605222C@dancol.org> <055E6E92-6971-409E-A106-7E0C64FEF856@dancol.org> <87bk3r22x5.fsf@yahoo.com> <746FE961-37C5-4387-8274-7D90908EE2D6@dancol.org> <8734p3219c.fsf@yahoo.com> <867cefeo1w.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27829"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Po Lu , dancol@dancol.org, acm@muc.de, stefankangas@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 26 06:23:38 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sMKC1-0006wR-Iy for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 06:23:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sMDqW-00049S-Sa; Tue, 25 Jun 2024 17:37:04 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sMDpQ-0003wr-Px for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Jun 2024 17:36:30 -0400 Original-Received: from [2001:41d0:203:375::b8] (helo=out-184.mta1.migadu.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sMDoc-00013y-UE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Jun 2024 17:35:48 -0400 X-Envelope-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jeremybryant.net; s=key1; t=1719350809; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=NL/N6kn2XT+kheLwYggGqJVIdj+WVYJ3FcYxlvF71GI=; b=ZCxLTY/eGFRRYx7erZEB91s6BBtidy888MDDhsjv+DalWHK0DpFh9tyaAvZytpykGJxbRW li1tiHNA2vnuMzwSWd+ZP7V9Riw84933Uc3jEq3rYzwraNvVs9I4wXpZojUsSIEJ+L67lC rcPJYrzOeTP2aAQ0zVXcUvyiu/GkDOQAn0RblVM7XUn9BWoadaLXPuNuPNtNPn2VTNtTj0 D67zQbsr0Jo0LBgKg1HS01NEWMbTidCt7wB9pFyfCxnYW4eFDVVMFX0q7aPK/SyfsRsLcI VfD2qMWR4Qrm5qoyunIiNZq0XzAXnDao/lDBj/ZaoBQt5e76hJwMDlACsMg+gQ== X-Envelope-To: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca X-Envelope-To: stefankangas@gmail.com X-Envelope-To: acm@muc.de X-Envelope-To: dancol@dancol.org X-Envelope-To: luangruo@yahoo.com X-Envelope-To: eliz@gnu.org X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. In-Reply-To: <867cefeo1w.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 23 Jun 2024 17:22:51 +0300") X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2001:41d0:203:375::b8 (deferred) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2001:41d0:203:375::b8; envelope-from=jb@jeremybryant.net; helo=out-184.mta1.migadu.com X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RDNS_NONE=0.793, T_SPF_HELO_TEMPERROR=0.01, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:320648 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Po Lu >> Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Stefan Kangas , >> Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org >> Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2024 22:15:59 +0800 >> >> Daniel Colascione writes: >> >> > I don't trust that many such users exist, and even if they did, >> > providing default keybindings for these keys will not somehow override >> > the keybindings you install yourself. >> >> Sure. And more users stand to benefit from Windmove commands if they >> are bound to C-x 4, than if they were required to bind such commands >> themselves, commands defined by a package that is already of marginal >> interest? What extraordinary logic! >> >> > This attitude is why Doom Emacs exists. A live software project is one >> > that changes. A dead one prioritizes stasis over user experience. >> >> Since Doom Emacs exists and is Free Software, why are users not at >> liberty to install it and bid farewell to reaction and "stasis" in Emacs >> development? And why is it a matter for our consideration whether we >> fail or succeed in competing with them? Any mention of "competition" >> with an Emacs package is already a contradiction in terms. >> >> > Nothing we're talking about here will disturb your custom >> > keybindings. Your experience will work just as it did before. The only >> > difference is that users who don't have custom bindings for the arrow >> > keys under C-x 4 will get windmove functionality if they don't >> > customize the bindings. >> >> Spoken like a true intellectual, in the face of a real-life example to >> the contrary. > > This dispute begins to spill into the not-so-nice area, so I think it > is time for those who already made their opinions abundantly clear to > stop, and let people who have not yet spoken do so. > > It is clear that Daniel thought years ago we should have key bindings > for windmove, and still thinks so, and Stefan Monnier agrees with him. > It is also clear that Alan and Po Lu think we shouldn't. Now let's > hear from others, and please leave it to the Emacs maintainers to > decide what to do with this after we've heard enough opinions. Here for another opinion on the narrow topic of the proposed bindings. I originally set up the C-x 4 bindings on Daniel's suggestion in the original thread (~2021): 1. I also find that C-x 4 is indeed logical, which makes it easier to remember 2. C-x 4 .. works on the terminal/console. This is important for preserving functionality of Emacs.