From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changed outside --> set, in Customize UI Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:51:46 -0500 Message-ID: <871xbsky5a.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1107803498 13063 80.91.229.6 (7 Feb 2005 19:11:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 19:11:38 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs-Devel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 07 20:11:31 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CyEIF-0006g0-00 for ; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 20:11:31 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1CyEWQ-0008M1-IT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 14:26:10 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1CyETQ-0007WQ-82 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 14:23:04 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1CyETG-0007Rw-Cr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 14:22:59 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1CyETE-0007MB-KF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 14:22:52 -0500 Original-Received: from [209.226.175.93] (helo=tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CyDz9-0006Rx-Vm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:51:48 -0500 Original-Received: from alfajor ([65.92.240.235]) by tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with ESMTP id <20050207185147.GMBW1694.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@alfajor>; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:51:47 -0500 Original-Received: by alfajor (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 91A0FD7343; Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:51:46 -0500 (EST) Original-To: "Drew Adams" In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:04:04 -0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/21.3.50 (gnu/linux) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:33032 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:33032 > Nice theory, but in practice there is a big difference, because in > most cases the "changes outside customize" either always take place or > never take place, so it's a rare occurrence when the problem you > mention shows up. > If, today, most "changes outside customize" occur systematically, that is > because most represent _bugs_: libraries that are diddling user options when > they shouldn't. No, it's because the same code is executed at most startup. After all, your .emacs doesn't change much from one invocation to the next and you tend to use the same major modes from one invocation to the next, so the same code is triggered. > In the future, I expect that most such outside changes will be made by > users using other ways than Customize (extensions of Customize, > essentially) to change values. Users will set options in various ways and > they will see that "Set" status correctly reflected in Customize. Then you're not talking about removing the distinction but about eradicating the cases where "changed outside customize" occurs. > And even if it does show up, taking a look at the customize > buffer when you see the problem will tell you "changed > outside customize" warning you of the problem. > What is the problem you are trying to solve, really? I.e. in > what way is the message "changed outside customize" a problem? > Come on, you can't have it both ways. Either "changed outside customize" is > valuable because it is effective in warning users about disastrous problems, > or it is harmless (might not help but doesn't hurt), has no effect, and > means nothing. Which do you want to claim? Notice I asked "in what way is the message `changed outside customize' a problem", which is not the same as "in what way is a situation denoted by `changed outside customize' a problem". Don't shoot the messenger. > IOW, turn your question around: In what way is using Set instead of > Changed Outside Customize a problem? Because it hides the fact that Custom has detected a potential problem. Do you want to solve the problem or do you want to put your head in the sand by removing the message warning you of the problem? Stefan