Re: Changed outside --> set, in Customize UI

[Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>]

>     Nice theory, but in practice there is a big difference, because in
>     most cases the "changes outside customize" either always take place or
>     never take place, so it's a rare occurrence when the problem you
>     mention shows up.

> If, today, most "changes outside customize" occur systematically, that is
> because most represent _bugs_: libraries that are diddling user options when
> they shouldn't.

No, it's because the same code is executed at most startup.  After all, your
.emacs doesn't change much from one invocation to the next and you tend to
use the same major modes from one invocation to the next, so the same code
is triggered.

> In the future, I expect that most such outside changes will be made by
> users using other ways than Customize (extensions of Customize,
> essentially) to change values.  Users will set options in various ways and
> they will see that "Set" status correctly reflected in Customize.

Then you're not talking about removing the distinction but about eradicating
the cases where "changed outside customize" occurs.

>     And even if it does show up, taking a look at the customize
>     buffer when you see the problem will tell you "changed
>     outside customize" warning you of the problem.
>     What is the problem you are trying to solve, really? I.e. in
>     what way is the message "changed outside customize" a problem?

> Come on, you can't have it both ways. Either "changed outside customize" is
> valuable because it is effective in warning users about disastrous problems,
> or it is harmless (might not help but doesn't hurt), has no effect, and
> means nothing. Which do you want to claim?

Notice I asked "in what way is the message `changed outside customize'
a problem", which is not the same as "in what way is a situation denoted
by `changed outside customize' a problem".
Don't shoot the messenger.

> IOW, turn your question around: In what way is using Set instead of
> Changed Outside Customize a problem?

Because it hides the fact that Custom has detected a potential problem.

Do you want to solve the problem or do you want to put your head in the sand
by removing the message warning you of the problem?


        Stefan