From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Efforts to attract more users? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 09:23:48 +0900 Message-ID: <871vb9k0ob.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1278895765 6666 80.91.229.12 (12 Jul 2010 00:49:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 00:49:25 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Lennart Borgman , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: Juanma Barranquero Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 12 02:49:24 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OY7D1-0002K9-Vo for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 02:49:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45657 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OY7D1-000555-Cv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 20:49:23 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=52587 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OY7Cu-000550-FI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 20:49:17 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OY7Ct-0005oZ-Bo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 20:49:16 -0400 Original-Received: from mtps01.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.223]:49235) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OY7Cs-0005o5-OH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 20:49:15 -0400 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mtps01.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C561535A8; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 09:29:48 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C46BE1A263F; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 09:23:48 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: VM 8.0.12-devo-585 under 21.5 (beta29) "garbanzo" ed3b274cc037 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127077 Archived-At: Back to the "attract more users" thread. Specifically, "attract more user/developers." Juanma Barranquero writes: > On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 02:28, Lennart Borgman > wrote: > > > I told you at that time how to do the merge. You seemed to believe it > > could be done another way. > > Yes, you told me "here's my code, please adapt it to the trunk, as I > don't have time to do it myself" (not exact quote, but that's the > feeling). That's not the feeling I get at all. I don't have complete sympathy for Lennart, there is clearly some aspect of contributing to Emacs that he just doesn't get, leading to blocked communication with disheartening frequency. However, "take it or leave it" is NOT AT ALL what I get from his posts. There a separate issue, that when you submit working code to Emacs, you will be told to change it in ways that give you heartburn. Lennart has had *multiple* experiences where he has submitted working code, communications over the integration break down, and his code was refused, without anybody ever doing more than looking at it and saying "that can't work" (usually with a theoretical rationale that for whatever reason Lennart doesn't get). While (as I mention above), Lennart has to take some responsibility for the communications breakdown, I cannot at all blame him for not wanting to go through that again. One of the nice things about working on Emacs and Emacs, as well as projects like Python, Mailman, and Bazaar, is that sometimes (not always, of course) other people will do the work that you for whatever reason don't want to do. It's a shame that GNU Emacs, of all the projects in the world, feels so impoverished that its developers can't take time out to mentor somebody like Lennart, show him the ropes, and *teach* him how to make submissions that get accepted the first time around and require only minor adjustments and checks before integration to the trunk. I think in this case the proposed change is such an obvious winner that it's only Emacs-side stubbornness that prevents it from being implemented.