Fixing footnote HTML

Fixing footnote HTML

[Samuel Wales]

On 2/27/13, Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/13/13, Nicolas Goaziou <n.goaziou@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anyway, if you send the correct HTML that should be generated, I will
>> fix it.
>
> Probably all that needs to be done is to not use a table.  I tested this by
> manually removing <table> <td> <tr> and their closing tags.

I am referring to these:

  (defun org-html-format-footnote-definition (fn)
  (defun org-html-footnote-section (info)

They output a table, which looks IMO very confusing in both w3m and
Firefox.  The old exporter worked fine.  The solution IMO is to remove
the table tags.

> I tested it in Firefox and w3m.

Samuel

-- 
The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

The disease DOES progress.  MANY people have died from it.  Just like
AIDS, it attacks MANY body systems.  ANYBODY can get it.  There is NO
hope without activist action.  This means YOU.

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Jambunathan K]

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> On 2/27/13, Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2/13/13, Nicolas Goaziou <n.goaziou@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Anyway, if you send the correct HTML that should be generated, I will
>>> fix it.
>>
>> Probably all that needs to be done is to not use a table.  I tested this by
>> manually removing <table> <td> <tr> and their closing tags.
>
> I am referring to these:
>
>   (defun org-html-format-footnote-definition (fn)
>   (defun org-html-footnote-section (info)
>
> They output a table, which looks IMO very confusing in both w3m and
> Firefox.  The old exporter worked fine.  The solution IMO is to remove
> the table tags.

It is preferable to introduce a footnote, preamble, postamble, toc,
bibliography etc as pseudo-elements, with Footnotes and Bibliograph
attachable to beginning or end of chapters.  This way the HTML exporter
can do some light-weight HTML transcoding.  Folks can derive from this
base HTML exporter and surround their content to heart's pleasure.

See my other response to Rick, where I split current exporter to html
and HTML backends and have him derive from html backend.

>> I tested it in Firefox and w3m.

Catering to one off requests - reading on w3m or export to HTML5, slidy,
whatever etc - is exactly what the above pseudo-elements will avoid.

People can add their own translators instead of relying on the base HTML
exporter for one-off changes.

I am sure Samuel will remind us infinitely if we forget about it.  

As an aside, I would like the following to be cleared before a release
actually happens.

1. I would like to split the HTML exporter if pseudo-elements are made
   available to me.  

2. I also want the CSS stylenames to be regularized and improved.

3. CSS stylesheets to be pulled out of the exporter so that one can have
   users contributing Org themes.  A moving CSS stylenames will prevent
   proliferation of themes.

4. I want support for Htmlfontify as the default fontifier.  Htmlize not
   being part of Emacs shouldn't be the default fontifier.

What is mostly preventing me is my poor knowledge of HTML and CSS and my
own laziness.

ps: I would recommend that release happen just prior to a merge in to
Emacs-24.4 and Emacs-25.  Considering the requests that happen on HTML
front, I feel that export tools can be improved in small and useful ways
before freezing their base form.

> Samuel

-- 

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Jambunathan K]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

>> They output a table, which looks IMO very confusing in both w3m and
>> Firefox.  The old exporter worked fine.  The solution IMO is to remove
>> the table tags.

I don't think footnotes export are confusing.  I have seen people using
it and not complain about it.

Unless you say why it is confusing, I would count the above statement as
just mis-information and not a fact that other parties could agree with.
-- 

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Samuel Wales]

On 3/9/13, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am sure Samuel will remind us infinitely if we forget about it.

> Unless you say why it is confusing, I would count the above statement as
> just mis-information and not a fact that other parties could agree with.

You promised to leave:

On 2/12/13, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
> I let go of my commit access sometime ago.  Now, I am leaving this
> forum.

Bastien asked you to ban yourself.

You need to be taught to take a hint.

Samuel Wales

-- 
The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

The disease DOES progress.  MANY people have died from it.  It attacks
MANY body systems.  ANYBODY can get it.  There is NO hope without
activist action.  This means YOU.

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Jambunathan K]

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> On 3/9/13, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am sure Samuel will remind us infinitely if we forget about it.
>
>> Unless you say why it is confusing, I would count the above statement as
>> just mis-information and not a fact that other parties could agree with.
>
> You promised to leave:
>
> On 2/12/13, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I let go of my commit access sometime ago.  Now, I am leaving this
>> forum.
>
> Bastien asked you to ban yourself.

Samuel,

I asked him to remove ox-html.el and he indicated how he wanted to
proceed ahead.  He wants ox-html.el in the tree and not GNU ELPA.

As one who re-wrote ox-html.el I have every moral authority to accept or
reject proposals or handle it the way I see fit.  Bastien has the keys.
Hehas commit rights, which I don't have.

Tell me why Footnotes export is confusing and I will assure you a
sensible debate.  I indicated that it is not confusing.  The
responsibility is on you to convince me of your case.

Sorry.  The list has to learn to deal with me, even if that amounts to
throwing the wares I have written out the window.

> You need to be taught to take a hint.
>
> Samuel Wales

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Bastien]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> I asked him to remove ox-html.el and he indicated how he wanted to
> proceed ahead.  He wants ox-html.el in the tree and not GNU ELPA.

Just to prevent confusion: I never said anything like this.

ox-html.el is in the master branch of Org's repository, it will be
in GNU ELPA (and Emacs) when we release 8.0.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Jambunathan K]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I asked him to remove ox-html.el and he indicated how he wanted to
>> proceed ahead.  He wants ox-html.el in the tree and not GNU ELPA.
>
> Just to prevent confusion: I never said anything like this.
>
> ox-html.el is in the master branch of Org's repository, it will be
> in GNU ELPA (and Emacs) when we release 8.0.

I was typing faster.  So I consider what I typed grammatically
malformed.  Sorry.

People who want improvements to ox-html.el should be willing to work
with me or act on my comments or argue with me or openly call me I am
wrong.

To others, if you cannot handle how I come across, there are things that
you can do to deal with me - One famous Orger added me to his kill file
for example.  (I am telling you how to deal with me!)

I will comment on what goes in to ox-html.el and offer my opinions on
it.  I don't have or want commit access.  So I am very constrained on
what I could do, unlike what my tone implies.
-- 

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Bastien]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> I was typing faster.  So I consider what I typed grammatically
> malformed.  Sorry.

No problem.

> People who want improvements to ox-html.el should be willing to work
> with me or act on my comments or argue with me or openly call me I am
> wrong.

People who want to work on ox-html.el are welcome to work on anyone
subscribed in this list.  Since you don't know HTML, maybe you are
not in the best position to comment on the HTML output.

For the problem at stake, I agree putting footnotes in a HTML table
is confusing, I will fix this.

> I will comment on what goes in to ox-html.el and offer my opinions on
> it.  I don't have or want commit access.  So I am very constrained on
> what I could do, unlike what my tone implies.

You're opinion is welcome when it's stated in a civilian tone,
like any opinion on this list.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Jambunathan K]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I was typing faster.  So I consider what I typed grammatically
>> malformed.  Sorry.
>
> No problem.
>
>> People who want improvements to ox-html.el should be willing to work
>> with me or act on my comments or argue with me or openly call me I am
>> wrong.
>
> People who want to work on ox-html.el are welcome to work on anyone
> subscribed in this list.  Since you don't know HTML, maybe you are
> not in the best position to comment on the HTML output.
>
> For the problem at stake, I agree putting footnotes in a HTML table
> is confusing, I will fix this.

I wrote the code, I know where it will bite.  I will not say it, because
you seem so confident.  Yes, go ahead and fix it.

>> I will comment on what goes in to ox-html.el and offer my opinions on
>> it.  I don't have or want commit access.  So I am very constrained on
>> what I could do, unlike what my tone implies.
>
> You're opinion is welcome when it's stated in a civilian tone,
> like any opinion on this list.

Not all civilians are civil.

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Bastien]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> I wrote the code, I know where it will bite.  I will not say it, because
> you seem so confident.  Yes, go ahead and fix it.

Done, thanks.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Samuel Wales]

Hi Bastien,

Thanks for removing the table tags.  It looks great in w3m.  Much less
confusing.

For some reason, I am getting no blank lines between footnotes, and no
blank lines between paragraphs in multi-paragraph footnotes.  Any idea
why?  Tested in Firefox.

I can try to dig up old exporter output if that will help, as that looked good.

Samuel

-- 
The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

The disease DOES progress.  MANY people have died from it.  It attacks
MANY body systems.  ANYBODY can get it.  There is NO hope without
activist action.  This means YOU.

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Samuel Wales]

In <p style="display:inline;" class="footnote">, removing the style
argument seems to fix it.  Would that work?

-- 
The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

The disease DOES progress.  MANY people have died from it.  ANYBODY
can get it.  It attacks MANY body systems.  There is NO hope without
action.  This means YOU.

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Bastien]

Hi Samuel,

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> For some reason, I am getting no blank lines between footnotes, and no
> blank lines between paragraphs in multi-paragraph footnotes.  Any idea
> why?  Tested in Firefox.

This should now be fixed, thanks!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Samuel Wales]

Hi Bastien,

On 3/12/13, Bastien <bzg@altern.org> wrote:
> Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:
>> For some reason, I am getting no blank lines between footnotes, and no
>> blank lines between paragraphs in multi-paragraph footnotes.  Any idea
>> why?  Tested in Firefox.
>
> This should now be fixed, thanks!

I have tested this and it looks much better.  Thank you.

It might be good to add a blank line after the Footnotes section.

Samuel

-- 
The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

The disease DOES progress.  MANY people have died from it.  ANYBODY
can get it.  It attacks MANY body systems.  There is NO hope without
action.  This means YOU.

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Bastien]

Hi Samuel,

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> It might be good to add a blank line after the Footnotes section.

The default is fine IMHO.  

You'd need to define the #footnotes css id for this.

HTH,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Samuel Wales]

On 3/19/13, Bastien <bzg@altern.org> wrote:
>> It might be good to add a blank line after the Footnotes section.
>
> The default is fine IMHO.
>
> You'd need to define the #footnotes css id for this.

I'm not familiar with CSS enough to know here.  It wouldn't come for
free with the header code?  Here is what it looks like in Firefox:

===
Footnotes:
1

asdfasdfadf.
===

I expected text after "Footnotes" (hmm, I should remove the colon if
possible) to be like text after any other section.

Thanks.

Samuel

-- 
The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

The disease DOES progress.  MANY people have died from it.  ANYBODY
can get it.  There is NO hope without action.  This means YOU.

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Bastien]

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> I expected text after "Footnotes" (hmm, I should remove the colon if
> possible) to be like text after any other section.

It is for me.  Screenshots help a lot with those issues,
especially when they are often not bugs, but small quirks
wrt personal preferences.  Thanks for sending screenshots
if you can.

Best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Samuel Wales]

On 3/24/13, Bastien <bzg@altern.org> wrote:
> It is for me.  Screenshots help a lot with those issues,
> especially when they are often not bugs, but small quirks
> wrt personal preferences.  Thanks for sending screenshots
> if you can.

Screenshot is not feasible ATM.  However, the example I showed was a
copy paste from my most recent blog post.

===
Footnotes:
1

They possibly include aysmptomatic also, just as HIV-infected people
can be asymptomatic. They are readily
==

So in Firefox for me at least, there is no blank line between
Footnotes: and 1.

Strange.

-- 
The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

The disease DOES progress.  MANY people have died from it.  ANYBODY
can get it.  There is NO hope without action.  This means YOU.

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Bastien]

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> So in Firefox for me at least, there is no blank line between
> Footnotes: and 1.

"Footnotes:" is inserted as a <h2> header in the HTML file.

So there should be a visual space after it.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Samuel Wales]

Hi Bastien,

On 3/24/13, Bastien <bzg@altern.org> wrote:
>> So in Firefox for me at least, there is no blank line between
>> Footnotes: and 1.
>
> "Footnotes:" is inserted as a <h2> header in the HTML file.
>
> So there should be a visual space after it.

I don't know why there isn't.  I guess it means CSS is required?

I have the 1 of the first footnote appearing on the next line without
a blank line.

In any case sounds like a non-Org bug, but wanted.  Thanks.

Samuel

-- 
The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

The disease DOES progress.  MANY people have died from it.  ANYBODY
can get it.  There is NO hope without action.  This means YOU.

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Thomas S. Dye]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 3/9/13, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I am sure Samuel will remind us infinitely if we forget about it.
>>
>>> Unless you say why it is confusing, I would count the above statement as
>>> just mis-information and not a fact that other parties could agree with.
>>
>> You promised to leave:
>>
>> On 2/12/13, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I let go of my commit access sometime ago.  Now, I am leaving this
>>> forum.
>>
>> Bastien asked you to ban yourself.
>
> Samuel,
>
> I asked him to remove ox-html.el and he indicated how he wanted to
> proceed ahead.  He wants ox-html.el in the tree and not GNU ELPA.

The code in ox-html belongs to the Org community and to everyone who
wants to use Org mode. Your request to Bastien implies a right of
property, which doesn't exist. Because you have no property claim,
Bastien's wishes don't involve you, they involve the Org community and
its potential use of ox-html.el.

> As one who re-wrote ox-html.el I have every moral authority to accept or
> reject proposals or handle it the way I see fit.  Bastien has the keys.
> Hehas commit rights, which I don't have.

What is the foundation of your "moral authority", except some
non-existent property right? You have no property right to this code. On
the other hand, we have the right not to be excluded from its use and
enjoyment.  The FSF papers are clear about this. This is how we function
as a community.  

Please understand that we've placed our trust in Bastien and are
confident that he will do right by us.  He is clearly looking after our
best interests by keeping ox-html in the tree.

> Sorry.  The list has to learn to deal with me, even if that amounts to
> throwing the wares I have written out the window.

We are not fools and won't throw out "your" code until it suits us. It
works well and we intend to use and enjoy it for as long as it is useful
and enjoyable.

I hope you know that I admire your work and think you are a valuable
member of our community. But, like the rest of us, you have to deal with
the Org community, because it is the Org mode community, ever changing,
that will shepherd the code you, many others, and (to a much lesser
extent) I wrote. If we work well together on this magnificent idea, Org
mode might outlive us all.

Peace,
Tom

-- 
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Jambunathan K]

Thomas

I will reply to you in private.

I am talking to Samuels and Ricks who think that I have no right to
offer my opinions on what gets in to that file.

Jambunathan K.

Re: Fixing footnote HTML

[Thomas S. Dye]

Aloha Jambunathan,

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> Thomas
>
> I will reply to you in private.
>
> I am talking to Samuels and Ricks who think that I have no right to
> offer my opinions on what gets in to that file.

If this is indeed what is being discussed, then there is no reason to
discuss it on the Org mode mailing list.  

Like every other person, you are free to alter the contents of that file
as it pleases you. If you think your changes might benefit other users,
and you are still willing to accept the structure of rights in the FSF
papers, then you can send patches.  

The Org community, through its maintainer, Bastien, will do with your
patches as it pleases.

Alternatively, as Bastien pointed out a while back, you are free to fork
Org mode and form your own FSF community of like-minded coders and
users.  This way, the ideas and opinions of our community members need
not concern you at all.

Peace,
Tom

-- 
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com