From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 11:18:50 -0500 Message-ID: <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> Reply-To: Karl Fogel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="88872"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: excalamus@tutanota.com, Nathan Colinet , andreas.roehler@online.de, Richard Stallman To: Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed May 13 18:19:55 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jYu6s-000N0c-GN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 18:19:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38968 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYu6r-0003oF-JD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 12:19:53 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45886) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYu5v-0003MC-S1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 12:18:55 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ot1-x331.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::331]:41920) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYu5u-00075H-Gr; Wed, 13 May 2020 12:18:55 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ot1-x331.google.com with SMTP id 63so6485050oto.8; Wed, 13 May 2020 09:18:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qxKP41m2vG5Fcgxfz+gUO4GoKreCGG1lu9FXs8wdH/k=; b=gPTOS+RKGrxPuyXlXLCuAcnDfV0YTeWfWSImB0z6evIe9yMtMY87AsoHeCbeCS12Uq LaDrqtq5YpRjnRpK40HtqLcoWxzWH/cmayKgOTlGQsZMdQo0QcdUn2ERUxPE6gxTGq21 q+14l28KdwGtWLfH4Y6CmjG7YNRnBk1gq3JL6qEtlJU5W5NSxAq4P9pjDv5KWYRpzLBS 92KeLdJj4/grkzv4/NyFIiM+PEiLtf9YHLXuVl4+UbRHnlwmbCUtHbAYAxgOgbHleRyw IRHHZSqdDcbwEngJS9o+OlAqrHvYWnCtmZWqqb2mRfo+vRhxNBgV95LGUCqg3zUG0CMX uOhQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to :date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=qxKP41m2vG5Fcgxfz+gUO4GoKreCGG1lu9FXs8wdH/k=; b=FqTxKWB5hIDHOYLXfpVOtJoG8bKDwlT42Ls9U6Q2kMixjiVl78JM+qkMaj87H6gs1I A57huAK2f4S28paERCwjOwB2pWm6kmFbWY3SuZ9lm2h5nBPCJu8cFaZzACOUWNyysCid 5ZfpK9vE3HO0zhvfQjnCJ4q8CFCc8oXptpLiVWw1s7oYkEF0uKdU/NtwgM5SLTDq5Dei GBGC0u/6r29/P3FmQ+2JchwxH/HNPU5lybZiTpGEI2vJyLR/Oq4UzVm75Q0EMpWkZ2tY 9YzyOR+X40bjd/1Ab4oFBWQwkLFa9eEtdGSGc3SuX1/+KFaIR1FceTPtnlnWerH4bw71 mAwA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530d92R/n/uY3ExDwjTCplHGx42Dy7HAD6M6aYM038mO2sM6BnZv v8sa9H4ts6IJpx2ePLn64mE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx1+wawanEAbVK/AuNPNAQotESw1J35gxNa2gjh9Dgdn3YKTFu1aoFhroMKSf6tkef28l816A== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:57cb:: with SMTP id q11mr175081oti.11.1589386732103; Wed, 13 May 2020 09:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from floss (99-112-125-163.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net. [99.112.125.163]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n9sm35841otl.76.2020.05.13.09.18.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 13 May 2020 09:18:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (excalamus's message of "Tue, 12 May 2020 14:57:40 +0200 (CEST)") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::331; envelope-from=kfogel@gmail.com; helo=mail-ot1-x331.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250146 Archived-At: On 12 May 2020, excalamus--- via "Emacs development discussions." wrote: >May 11, 2020, 23:12 by rms@gnu.org: >What are we competing for? I feel that while other threads are >examining "missing features", it would be helpful to examine what GNU >Emacs does offer. Not only in software features, but maybe also in >philosophy, community, or tradition. > >What is it about GNU Emacs that makes this mailing list bustle with >enthusiasm? Other editors use GPL, provide source code, have >documentation, are customizable, and extendable. There's something >in how GNU Emacs implements these that is different. I feel like >there are taters to find if we dig a little. > >Is it because Emacs Lisp is unique to Emacs that Emacs teaches as >well as documents? >Is it that by being a pseudo-Lisp machine, Emacs puts users in the >zone of proximal development? >Is GNU Emacs the best embodiment of the GNU philosophy?=20 Sure, I'll take the bait: To the best of my knowledge, no other editing environment rewards sustained= user investment so well. With Emacs, if you keep investing -- i.e., acquiring knowledge and skill by= reading documentation, writing customizations, and exploring others' custo= mizations -- Emacs keeps rewarding you with a better and better editing exp= erience. The degree to which it does this seems normal to many of us here,= because we've been used to it for many years. I think we sometimes fail t= o appreciate the degree to which non-users, potential ("Emacs-curious") use= rs, and even many actual new users are *not* aware of it: they don't realiz= e how enormous the reward can be, and how broad its scope. This should probably affect how we think about promoting Emacs. Emacs shou= ldn't necessarily try to attract everyone who needs to edit text [1]. Many= people who edit text nonetheless don't view text editing as a primary acti= vity worthy of investment. Those users are not good candidates for Emacs. Emacs's best prospects are with the sorts of people who *do* see -- or who = can be persuaded to see -- text editing as worthy of investment. There's a= loose correlation in which good programmers tend to be those sorts of peop= le, because good programmers are usually willing to invest in learning thei= r tools in general. E.g., they'll learn their text editor the same way the= y'll learn their debugger, their programming framework, etc. But the set i= sn't limited to just programmers. For example, scientists and other academ= ics who edit LaTeX documents are often good candidates for Emacs usage, bec= ause by both temperament and life situation they are well-positioned to und= erstand how sustained investment in learning their editing environment coul= d pay off in the long term. So I suggest that GNU Emacs's raison d'=C3=AAtre is to be the text editor t= hat best rewards sustained user investment. I think Emacs actually does so right now, too, and that we just haven't alw= ays communicated this fact clearly enough. Thus, instead of focusing on making Emacs easier for new users, it would be= better to focus on smoothing out discontinuities in Emacs' investment-rewa= rd curve. The long-term health of Emacs as a project will not come from a = large number of lightly committed users who don't appreciate what makes Ema= cs unique, but rather from a smaller number of users for whom Emacs is impo= rtant and irreplaceable. I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't improve the new-user experience in Ema= cs, of course. We should make it as easy as possible for newcomers *while = still prioritizing invested users*. In user experience design, there are = frequently tradeoffs between making things easy for newcomers and making th= em rewarding for experts. Unfortunately, too often in design discussions, = the new user experience automatically wins out -- it's like some kind of ma= gic card that people play (even sometimes unconsciously) in UI/UX discussio= ns. For Emacs, this would be a mistake. Emacs's great strength will never= be in its new-user experience, and this is in some ways a necessary conseq= uence of Emacs being so great for highly invested long-term users. This also suggests that the sorts of features that highly-invested users te= nd to want -- for example, LSP-based features -- should be more important t= o us than how square the menus are or what menu items are shown in a defaul= t startup configuration. When we make decisions that disappoint the core u= ser base, we endanger the project much more than when we make decisions tha= t disappoint users (or potential users) who weren't likely to become highly= invested anyway. (The fact that Emacs promotes free software by being a good GPL'd program i= s nice too, and is important to many of us, but it's not unique to Emacs.) Best regards, -Karl