From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Moving kbd to subr.el Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 15:38:05 +0200 Message-ID: <871r4hf83m.fsf@gnus.org> References: <20211004081724.6281.11798@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <874k9juy0r.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtnbtimj.fsf@gnus.org> <87wnmd13ny.fsf@gnus.org> <87sfx10xs6.fsf@gnus.org> <87h7dfpjn3.fsf@gnus.org> <31b2f1e94178d73e5f05@heytings.org> <87czo3pgs1.fsf@gnus.org> <31b2f1e9412d60db82df@heytings.org> <87o87moopl.fsf@gnus.org> <19fca5d18b63e6eff5de@heytings.org> <87wnmaiida.fsf@gnus.org> <87zgr6gw9s.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1chhhkh.fsf@gnus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="832"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Gregory Heytings , Stefan Kangas , Emacs developers To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 19 15:39:55 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mcpLJ-000AQx-9D for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 15:39:49 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36628 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mcpLH-0001kM-Tf for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 09:39:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54792) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mcpJx-00012H-SX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 09:38:25 -0400 Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([2a01:4f9:2b:f0f::2]:53084) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mcpJj-0000VY-VC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 09:38:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=iCJ7fuo1usLPM1AHBEPShgG0jI33YHS+gqcxzRYhX+0=; b=EYBOEgRizqVKcov9uYYYFbfR2o fbmO+zwOq8YwJF4zIj5tyadGKwz7fQBvaQu1/KwyVvHyAmJlEE5OxBqAzBoi1Lk5XjU86Iqrf4x1z 8aYexSIxjzWXf7GKtJ4hVWhsCH7yTeV4TdtqxGIbNGxf1i6tSRa/XT4gYRYNumVqm/8o=; Original-Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mcpJd-0006Mx-LU; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 15:38:08 +0200 Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAGFBMVEUiFxxzjJeWqbBi d4xKTVe0v8fR09r///86u1foAAAAAWJLR0QHFmGI6wAAAAd0SU1FB+UKEw0SLi67Lg4AAAGjSURB VDjLnZNRkoMgDIaZlgsoewHTpc+rOPtslQvITLgB3P8Im0RQ2/FpU6fM5DN//gAqRdG6cYGujTln xEgPLUqAcQ5MTyAm5IdWAdC5vnEDpShS5n+p0CGY3jgQkSR6G7jFwCUWKZcT6yACg9/8RGgABFAf qgABmzaA3dIJAwi455TYJLIhfge6RsBMNjcrSTA0HAWQBINNktJmJPB6ihvKsSbpN854v4MsQ3AB gUkXIGJYDHWiw8CWARhCoP2ZdhB3gO8Aa01iU0VJDWfApn4qAIv2aNKZoqR6sGDjrtVVJfUC3tiU CoGqpBYGtH+lJkwnwO0LSGsFfg4Mahf8VjsgXQylIoVpr1hyBm6Dcn0e+gA2Bj5MayOGdfQV6GXI fESWf2H92k0p38aygdRnPfJKb9dDzjWM6hQzxCQFtOVv4A4g+w0tjNMZ6LmzNAsd6u6orPrRA5jD KBmqq8RZpCye0XQBJmJv4PSKW/wluPEM7qJIy0fxuCBDoDvbfgC+wjS+8Z9t5G7PYJrxyoAeqP2l ZSLN+JHbXtS9uZ5l6/Xv+AMd4re+5ctE/AAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMS0xMC0xOVQx MzoxODo0NiswMDowMDEI1aUAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMTAtMTlUMTM6MTg6NDYr MDA6MDBAVW0ZAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Rocket To The Sky's _Medea_: "Call Medea" In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Tue, 19 Oct 2021 08:34:07 -0400") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a01:4f9:2b:f0f::2; envelope-from=larsi@gnus.org; helo=quimby.gnus.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:277358 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier writes: > I don't think this holds. > It's normal for higher-level APIs to rely on higher-level representations. That's true... but `define-keymap' and `define-key' are pretty much on the same level. I.e., both are public Emacs Lisp functions that define keys. > In the short term, no, but if you look at the 10-20 year horizon it > seems quite doable. Whether we do manage to completely remove it or not > doesn't matter very much for the benefit of Emacs users we should make > it so the user and coder will never need to know about it, and for that > we should actively discourage its use, starting by not supporting it > where it doesn't have to be supported. Is it worth 20 years of pain? I think Stefan K suggested making a whole new set of all these functions that would only understand the new syntax. I didn't think that would be doable, because there's so many of them, but I didn't actually count. Let's see... define-keymap define-key global-set-key global-unset-key local-set-key local-unset-key lookup-key OK, that's fewer than I thought. So, new random thought: kbd-keymap kbd-define kbd-set-globally kbd-unset-globally kbd-set-locally kbd-unset-locally kbd-lookup -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no