Communication problems and possible problems with the website

Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[c.buhtz]

Hello together,

I accept that most of you does the work in your unpayed free time and 
that each project has it's own "vibes" and ways to do things.
I just wan't to show you my experience with my tries to communicate with 
the project. It is not my goal to vent my anger; and I even have no 
anger. My goal is to improve the project not only my own experience!

And I hope it is OK that I collect all the items in one mail together.

1.
This website has a lot of deadlinks.
https://orgmode.org/worg/exporters/ox-overview.html

2.
This website
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-publish-html-tutorial.html
at the end in sub-section "Further reading" points to the mailinglist 
but only to the archive 
(http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/) not to the 
list-subscription site 
(https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode).
And on the archive site there is no link to the subscription site.

3.
This site does not make clear how to submit bug reports. It even does 
not make clear that the "way" is unusual (not web-based bug-trackers 
like bugreport or github). It simply says "Submit a bug report" but does 
not how. I think the important point and information for the users is 
that "Bug reports are done via E-Mail" to the mailinglist with 
manipulating the headers or using Emacs itself.

4.
Search more around I found out that I have to submit bugreports from 
inside Emacs via M-x org-something....
Make clear that I have to setup Emacs for sending emails in that case.
In my case I am not able to submit regular bug-reports because I do not 
manipulate my headers and my Emacs is not setup for emails.

5.
It is unclear where the repositories for the source code and the code of 
the website are. If I had found them I would have created a PR/patch for 
2.

Kind regards
Christian

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Byung-Hee HWANG]

Dear Christian,

c.buhtz@posteo.jp writes:

> [...thanks...]
> This site does not make clear how to submit bug reports.

Easy. Ask here by mail.

It is same for other issues.

Sincerely, Gnus fan Byung-Hee

-- 
^고맙습니다 _救濟蒼生_ 감사합니다_^))//

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Russell Adams]

Just to start, honest critical feedback is just fine. Thank you for
not being negative. ;]

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 11:29:38AM +0000, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:
> This website has a lot of deadlinks.
> https://orgmode.org/worg/exporters/ox-overview.html

Worg is community written and maintained. I've personally done
deadlock scans before, but I'm sure it needs to be done again.

Care to volunteer?

> This website
> https://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-publish-html-tutorial.html
> at the end in sub-section "Further reading" points to the mailinglist
> but only to the archive
> (http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/) not to the
> list-subscription site
> (https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode).
> And on the archive site there is no link to the subscription site.

Reading implies reading the list archive, not posting.

It's unfortunate that the archive doesn't link back to the main
list. I'm not sure that's configurable.

I've fixed it so that it links to the Worg page about the mailing
list. I hope that increases the clarity.

> This site does not make clear how to submit bug reports. It even does
> not make clear that the "way" is unusual (not web-based bug-trackers
> like bugreport or github). It simply says "Submit a bug report" but does
> not how. I think the important point and information for the users is
> that "Bug reports are done via E-Mail" to the mailinglist with
> manipulating the headers or using Emacs itself.

Where would this belong? On the main Org page? On Worg? It's
documented under "feedback" in the manual.

All Emacs bug reports are to mailing lists. That is the usual.

On the main org-mode site the first major point under "Contribute" is
how to submit a bug report.

> Search more around I found out that I have to submit bugreports from
> inside Emacs via M-x org-something....
> Make clear that I have to setup Emacs for sending emails in that case.
> In my case I am not able to submit regular bug-reports because I do not
> manipulate my headers and my Emacs is not setup for emails.

M-x org-submit-bug-report

Emacs doesn't have to be setup for email, you can simply copy the
message into your mail client to send. It tells you that inside Emacs
when you create the report.

This is the same as M-x submit-emacs-bug.

Again the first point under Orgmode.org's Contribute button is bug
reporting.

> It is unclear where the repositories for the source code and the code of
> the website are. If I had found them I would have created a PR/patch for
> 2.

Which site?

https://orgmode.org/ is administered by Org maintainers. I'm not sure
where that repo is, and it's not publicly writable. Suggesting edits
for that site is certainly appropriate on this mailing list.

https://orgmode.org/worg/ is community written, and the git repository
is on the main page of both orgmode.org and Worg:
https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg

You can follow the directions below to request access to contribute to
Worg:

https://orgmode.org/worg/worg-about.html


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Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Ihor Radchenko]

c.buhtz@posteo.jp writes:

> I accept that most of you does the work in your unpayed free time and 
> that each project has it's own "vibes" and ways to do things.
> I just wan't to show you my experience with my tries to communicate with 
> the project. It is not my goal to vent my anger; and I even have no 
> anger. My goal is to improve the project not only my own experience!

Thank you very much for your feedback! Many of the Org users are coming
from Emacs and are already familiar with many of our conventions. Users
coming from outside Emacs are often underrepresented in the received
feedback.

> And I hope it is OK that I collect all the items in one mail together.

No problem.

> 1.
> This website has a lot of deadlinks.
> https://orgmode.org/worg/exporters/ox-overview.html

I replied in the other email.

> 2.
> This website
> https://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-publish-html-tutorial.html
> at the end in sub-section "Further reading" points to the mailinglist 
> but only to the archive 
> (http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/) not to the 
> list-subscription site 
> (https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode).
> And on the archive site there is no link to the subscription site.

I agree that it may be confusing. I recall that I had to google a bit
first time I encountered this issue. I have submitted a report about the
lack of the subscription link GNU mailman bug tracker.

> 3.
> This site does not make clear how to submit bug reports. It even does 
> not make clear that the "way" is unusual (not web-based bug-trackers 
> like bugreport or github). It simply says "Submit a bug report" but does 
> not how. I think the important point and information for the users is 
> that "Bug reports are done via E-Mail" to the mailinglist with 
> manipulating the headers or using Emacs itself.

> 4.
> Search more around I found out that I have to submit bugreports from 
> inside Emacs via M-x org-something....
> Make clear that I have to setup Emacs for sending emails in that case.
> In my case I am not able to submit regular bug-reports because I do not 
> manipulate my headers and my Emacs is not setup for emails.

Could you clarify which particular url you are referring to?
If you go to orgmode.org -> Contribute, you will see the following:

>> Send bug reports. Before sending a bug report, make sure you read the
>> section of the manual on how to provide useful feedback or this other
>> great text: How to Send Bug Reports Effectively.

The word "feedback" links to the manual page at
https://orgmode.org/org.html#Feedback
The page provides all the details about the mailing list and using
org-submit-bug-report + explains what to do if your Emacs is not
configured to send email:

>> If you find problems with Org, or if you have questions, remarks, or
>> ideas about it, please send an email to the Org mailing list
>> emacs-orgmode@gnu.org. You can subscribe to the list from this web
>> page.

>> If you are not sending the Email from within Emacs, please copy and
>> paste the content into your Email program.

If you think that the current wording is confusing, please point out
which parts. We are pretty much blind here on the potential issues for
the newcomers (for obvious reason - we are too familiar with Org).
Pointing to the confusing parts would help a lot.

> 5.
> It is unclear where the repositories for the source code and the code of 
> the website are. If I had found them I would have created a PR/patch for 
> 2.

This is confusing. If you go to orgmode.org, the git link is in the front
page. Also, orgmode.org -> Install will bring you to the relevant page
of the manual, which provides all possible installation options
including cloning the official git repo.

Similarly, https://orgmode.org/worg/ has the links to its code in the
first heading:

>> Worg documentation on your machine
>> git clone https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg

Also, https://orgmode.org/ has

>> Site created by TEC with Org mode licensed under the GNU FDL 1.3

linking to https://orgmode.org/worg/org-site-colophon.html


Do you recall the urls where you tried to search for the source code?
Could you give more details on what confused you?

Appreciate your feedback.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[c.buhtz]

Dear Russell,

thank your for the explanations and taking my issues into account.

Am 25.02.2022 13:25 schrieb Russell Adams:
> On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 11:29:38AM +0000, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:
>> This site does not make clear how to submit bug reports. It even does
>> not make clear that the "way" is unusual (not web-based bug-trackers
>> like bugreport or github). It simply says "Submit a bug report" but 
>> does
>> not how. I think the important point and information for the users is
>> that "Bug reports are done via E-Mail" to the mailinglist with
>> manipulating the headers or using Emacs itself.
> 
> Where would this belong? On the main Org page? On Worg? It's
> documented under "feedback" in the manual.
> 
> All Emacs bug reports are to mailing lists. That is the usual.
> 
> On the main org-mode site the first major point under "Contribute" is
> how to submit a bug report.

I was looking here: https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html
Especially the section "Ways to contribute" -> "Ways that do not involve 
programming" -> "Send bug reports"
There is not described _how_ to do this. That is the point.

The first sentence links to how to produce "usefull feedback". Yes your 
are right to say, that behind that link is the M-x org-submit-bug-report 
described.
But org-submit-bug-report is about a bug-report and not about feedback. 
Feedback is not a bug-report.
Maybe it is the simplest to write "Submit bugs to the mailing list." And 
maybe give some more details about the manipulated header and if I have 
to subscribe to the list first to submit a bugreport.

What I meant with "unusual" is that in the broader context of FOSS it is 
unusual to do bug reports via M-x ...
By the way I wasn't aware that Emacs itself implements this way, too.

>> It is unclear where the repositories for the source code and the code 
>> of
>> the website are. If I had found them I would have created a PR/patch 
>> for
>> 2.
> 
> Which site?
> 
> https://orgmode.org/ is administered by Org maintainers. I'm not sure
> where that repo is, and it's not publicly writable.

 From my point of view this is unusual to. But this just should made 
clear to the users. I wasted time searching the repo. Just write "The 
repo is not publicly available". ;)
Because orgmode is FOSS everyone (new to it) would expect a source repo.

Kind
Christian

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[c.buhtz]

Am 25.02.2022 13:30 schrieb Ihor Radchenko:
> If you think that the current wording is confusing, please point out
> which parts. We are pretty much blind here on the potential issues for
> the newcomers (for obvious reason - we are too familiar with Org).
> Pointing to the confusing parts would help a lot.

The text in the buffer after M-x org-submit-bugreport says in the first 
line "You are about to submit a bug report to the Org mailing list".
This does not explain how this is done. As a (very fresh not Emacs 
familiar) user I wouldn't assume that I have to setup my Emacs as a mail 
client in that case. I would assume that there is some magic in behind. 
;)

Just write something like "Make sure your Emacs is setup to send emails 
or copy and paste the resulting buffer into an Email client of your 
choice."

>> 5.
>> It is unclear where the repositories for the source code and the code 
>> of
>> the website are. If I had found them I would have created a PR/patch 
>> for
>> 2.
> 
> This is confusing. If you go to orgmode.org, the git link is in the 
> front
> page. Also, orgmode.org -> Install will bring you to the relevant page
> of the manual, which provides all possible installation options
> including cloning the official git repo.

But the front-page and the Install are not the place where I would 
expect infos like that. Repos are for contributers not for users.
Users are reading "Install" and sometimes the front-page. I have not 
read the front-page but clicked on contribute.
In contribute the git thing is explained in "Details on how to submit 
patches" but there is a repo url missing.

> Similarly, https://orgmode.org/worg/ has the links to its code in the
> first heading:
> 
>>> Worg documentation on your machine
>>> git clone https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg

Definitly my fault.

btw: I would suggest to create links or mirror repos on your GitHub 
page.

> Do you recall the urls where you tried to search for the source code?

I searched behind the GitHub link (right top corner of the website) 
first.
I searched around on savannah but still have problems with the 
interface; which is another topic.

The point is that the users have to search (e.g. DuckDuckGo) because the 
links to the repo or to description that there is no public repo are not 
at the usual (compared to most of the other FOSS projects) places.

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Ihor Radchenko]

Russell Adams <RLAdams@adamsinfoserv.com> writes:

> https://orgmode.org/ is administered by Org maintainers. I'm not sure
> where that repo is, and it's not publicly writable. Suggesting edits
> for that site is certainly appropriate on this mailing list.

It is https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/orgweb/

Timothy, would you mind adding this link somewhere in the web page
footer?

Best,
Ihor

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Russell Adams]

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 12:38:24PM +0000, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:
> Am 25.02.2022 13:25 schrieb Russell Adams:
> > On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 11:29:38AM +0000, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:
> >> This site does not make clear how to submit bug reports. It even does
>
> I was looking here: https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html
> Especially the section "Ways to contribute" -> "Ways that do not involve
> programming" -> "Send bug reports"
> There is not described _how_ to do this. That is the point.

This may just be an unfortunate lack of alignment between the
community Worg and the main site. Again, on the main site there is a
prominent Contribute button and it shows how to send a report.

We're open to suggestions how to make them integrate better.

>  From my point of view this is unusual to. But this just should made
> clear to the users. I wasted time searching the repo. Just write
> "The repo is not publicly available". ;) Because orgmode is FOSS
> everyone (new to it) would expect a source repo.

I expect the software product to have a repo. I don't always expect a
repo for their public facing site. Some sites don't use source tools
to publish, and their public facing site will be access controlled to
prevent defacement.

On the other hand, Org does have a repo and Ihor appears to be
requesting TEC to add a link to the page.

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Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Ihor Radchenko]

c.buhtz@posteo.jp writes:

> The text in the buffer after M-x org-submit-bugreport says in the first 
> line "You are about to submit a bug report to the Org mailing list".
> This does not explain how this is done. As a (very fresh not Emacs 
> familiar) user I wouldn't assume that I have to setup my Emacs as a mail 
> client in that case. I would assume that there is some magic in behind. 
> ;)
>
> Just write something like "Make sure your Emacs is setup to send emails 
> or copy and paste the resulting buffer into an Email client of your 
> choice."

Thanks! This makes sense. We should probably modify
org-submit-bug-report docstring, the prompts, and the email template.

>>> It is unclear where the repositories for the source code and the code 
>>> of
>>> the website are. If I had found them I would have created a PR/patch 
>>> for
>>> 2.
>> 
>> This is confusing. If you go to orgmode.org, the git link is in the 
>> front
>> page. Also, orgmode.org -> Install will bring you to the relevant page
>> of the manual, which provides all possible installation options
>> including cloning the official git repo.
>
> But the front-page and the Install are not the place where I would 
> expect infos like that. Repos are for contributers not for users.
> Users are reading "Install" and sometimes the front-page. I have not 
> read the front-page but clicked on contribute.
> In contribute the git thing is explained in "Details on how to submit 
> patches" but there is a repo url missing.

Fair point. We need someone to make a patch for
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html Probably adding the git
repo links to Org mode, WORG, and the orgmode.org website:
git clone git://git.sv.gnu.org/emacs/org-mode.git
git clone https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg
git clone https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/orgweb

>> Similarly, https://orgmode.org/worg/ has the links to its code in the
>> first heading:
>> 
>>>> Worg documentation on your machine
>>>> git clone https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg
>
> Definitly my fault.
>
> btw: I would suggest to create links or mirror repos on your GitHub 
> page.

Org has no official GitHub page. This is partially a requirement from
Free Software Foundation:
https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#References

I think that we might create some kind of mirror given that it is only
used as means to redirect users to this mailing list, but we will need
(1) have a volunteer ready to accept github legal terms and take care
about the mirror; (2) consult FSF. I would like to hear opinions from
other contributors on this idea.

>> Do you recall the urls where you tried to search for the source code?
>
> I searched behind the GitHub link (right top corner of the website) 
> first.
> I searched around on savannah but still have problems with the 
> interface; which is another topic.
>
> The point is that the users have to search (e.g. DuckDuckGo) because the 
> links to the repo or to description that there is no public repo are not 
> at the usual (compared to most of the other FOSS projects) places.

I understand your concern. We may probably add a link to "Contribute"
page as a "git" image in the top right corner. (and maybe rename
"Contribute" to "Feedback"). Alternative suggestions are also welcome. I
will let Timothy/Bastien decide on this.

Also, for some context (I do not imply that we should not update the
website to make it more familiar to users).

Org mode was

>> Created by Carsten Dominik in 2003, maintained by Bastien Guerry and
>> developed by many others.

while Github was

>>  Launched	April 10, 2008; 13 years ago

:P

Best,
Ihor

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[c.buhtz]

Dear Ihor

Am 25.02.2022 15:18 schrieb Ihor Radchenko:
> Org has no official GitHub page. This is partially a requirement from
> Free Software Foundation:
> https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#References

I totally and absolute support that FSF requirement.

In that case I would say org-mode does violate that requirement because 
there is a GitHub and a PayPal link on the landing page. And on the Worg 
page (which is "official" from the new users point of view) there is 
also a GitHub link.
It does not matter that there is not code on GitHub and that this is 
only for sponsoring/donations. You have the link and the logo so you 
"promote" that stuff that the FSF do not want you to promote.

Kind,
Christian

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Russell Adams]

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 12:48:17PM +0000, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:
> Am 25.02.2022 13:30 schrieb Ihor Radchenko:
> > If you think that the current wording is confusing, please point out
> > which parts. We are pretty much blind here on the potential issues for
> > the newcomers (for obvious reason - we are too familiar with Org).
> > Pointing to the confusing parts would help a lot.
>
> The text in the buffer after M-x org-submit-bugreport says in the first
> line "You are about to submit a bug report to the Org mailing list".
> This does not explain how this is done. As a (very fresh not Emacs
> familiar) user I wouldn't assume that I have to setup my Emacs as a mail
> client in that case. I would assume that there is some magic in behind.
> ;)
>
> Just write something like "Make sure your Emacs is setup to send emails
> or copy and paste the resulting buffer into an Email client of your
> choice."

Pardon. M-x report-emacs-bug opens a side panel which clearly states
you can copy the message content out for another email program.

Perhaps we should update the information popup in
org-submit-bugreport. Can you recommend some additional explaination?

> >> It is unclear where the repositories for the source code and the code
>
> But the front-page and the Install are not the place where I would
> expect infos like that. Repos are for contributers not for users.

Are they? Many Emacs users pull direct from repos, which is why it's
front and center on the main orgmode site.

I think the difference here is between users and developers, where in
Emacs many users are developers and use tools like Git daily.

> In contribute the git thing is explained in "Details on how to submit
> patches" but there is a repo url missing.

I think we should consider adding the repo to the top of contribute as
well. Good idea.

> btw: I would suggest to create links or mirror repos on your GitHub
> page.

This could be done in Worg.

> > Do you recall the urls where you tried to search for the source code?
>
> I searched behind the GitHub link (right top corner of the website)
> first.
> I searched around on savannah but still have problems with the
> interface; which is another topic.
>
> The point is that the users have to search (e.g. DuckDuckGo) because the
> links to the repo or to description that there is no public repo are not
> at the usual (compared to most of the other FOSS projects) places.

I agree this is rather confusing. I think maybe we should consider
creating a comprehensive list of repos on Worg.


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Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Russell Adams]

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 02:24:53PM +0000, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:
> Dear Ihor
>
> Am 25.02.2022 15:18 schrieb Ihor Radchenko:
> > Org has no official GitHub page. This is partially a requirement from
> > Free Software Foundation:
> > https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#References
>
> I totally and absolute support that FSF requirement.
>
> In that case I would say org-mode does violate that requirement because
> there is a GitHub and a PayPal link on the landing page.

Those are links to supporting our maintainers. Not a project repo.

> And on the Worg page (which is "official" from the new users point
> of view) there is also a GitHub link.  It does not matter that there
> is not code on GitHub and that this is only for
> sponsoring/donations. You have the link and the logo so you
> "promote" that stuff that the FSF do not want you to promote.

I think that's a bit hazy, as they are services and not software. The
standards specify not to promote non-free software. While I don't like
Github at all, in this context it's only for the sponsorship
solution. That's a service like Paypal.

I'm not sure what a clear answer is here. I don't like having any
mention of Github and non-free services myself, but I respect that we
need to support the maintainers and that may require using common
services.

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Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github (was: Communication problems and possible problems with the website)

[Ihor Radchenko]

c.buhtz@posteo.jp writes:

> Am 25.02.2022 15:18 schrieb Ihor Radchenko:
>> Org has no official GitHub page. This is partially a requirement from
>> Free Software Foundation:
>> https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#References
>
> I totally and absolute support that FSF requirement.
>
> In that case I would say org-mode does violate that requirement because 
> there is a GitHub and a PayPal link on the landing page. And on the Worg 
> page (which is "official" from the new users point of view) there is 
> also a GitHub link.
> It does not matter that there is not code on GitHub and that this is 
> only for sponsoring/donations. You have the link and the logo so you 
> "promote" that stuff that the FSF do not want you to promote.

Fair point. Paypal requires non-free javascript. Github as well, AFAIK.

At the same time, according to GNU Coding standards:

>> A web page recommends a program in an implicit but particularly
>> strong way if it requires users to run that program in order to use
>> the page. Many pages contain Javascript code which they recommend in
>> this way. This Javascript code may be free or nonfree, but nonfree is
>> the usual case.
>> 
>> If the purpose for which you would refer to the page cannot be
>> carried out without running nonfree Javascript code, then you should
>> not refer to it. Thus, if the purpose of referring to the page is for
>> people to view a video, or subscribing to a mailing list, and the
>> viewing or subscribing fail to work if the user’s browser blocks the
>> nonfree Javascript code, then don’t refer to that page.
>> 
>> The extreme case is that of web sites which depend on nonfree
>> Javascript code even to see the contents of the pages. Any site
>> hosted on ‘wix.com’ has this problem, and so do some other sites.
>> Referring people to such pages to read their contents is, in effect,
>> urging them to run those nonfree programs—so please don’t refer to
>> those pages. (Such pages also break the Web, so they deserve
>> condemnation for two reasons.)

While orgmode.org is not developed in the same repository with the Org
mode itself, I have a gut feeling that we still have to follow GNU
coding standards on the website. However, WORG contains links to various
blogs, reddit, stackoverflow, and even youtube and it feels right. I
notice that I am confused. I would like to hear Bastien's opinion on the
topic.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github (was: Communication problems and possible problems with the website)

[Michael Powe]

Hello,

There's an old joke, that C allows you to blow your own foot off, and 
C++ allows you to blow off the whole leg. The FSF is like the C++ of the 
free software world. Whatever your feelings about PayPal - I avoid it 
like plague - it's ubiquitous in the web world of donations. In fact, 
you can find it on https://my.fsf.org/donate. All, or nearly all, 
packages that I use in Emacs are hosted on GitHub. Oh my, what's this? 
https://github.com/emacs-mirror/emacs! Say it isn't so!

Years ago, the Debian team started a huge dust-up by threatening to 
exclude GCC documentation from its distribution because its license 
wasn't "free enough." Let's not drive down that road.

We didn't make this world, but we live in it.

Thanks.

mp

On 2/25/2022 10:14, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> c.buhtz@posteo.jp writes:
>
>> Am 25.02.2022 15:18 schrieb Ihor Radchenko:
>>> Org has no official GitHub page. This is partially a requirement from
>>> Free Software Foundation:
>>> https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#References
>> I totally and absolute support that FSF requirement.
>>
>> In that case I would say org-mode does violate that requirement because
>> there is a GitHub and a PayPal link on the landing page. And on the Worg
>> page (which is "official" from the new users point of view) there is
>> also a GitHub link.
>> It does not matter that there is not code on GitHub and that this is
>> only for sponsoring/donations. You have the link and the logo so you
>> "promote" that stuff that the FSF do not want you to promote.
> Fair point. Paypal requires non-free javascript. Github as well, AFAIK.
>
> At the same time, according to GNU Coding standards:
>
>>> A web page recommends a program in an implicit but particularly
>>> strong way if it requires users to run that program in order to use
>>> the page. Many pages contain Javascript code which they recommend in
>>> this way. This Javascript code may be free or nonfree, but nonfree is
>>> the usual case.
>>>
>>> If the purpose for which you would refer to the page cannot be
>>> carried out without running nonfree Javascript code, then you should
>>> not refer to it. Thus, if the purpose of referring to the page is for
>>> people to view a video, or subscribing to a mailing list, and the
>>> viewing or subscribing fail to work if the user’s browser blocks the
>>> nonfree Javascript code, then don’t refer to that page.
>>>
>>> The extreme case is that of web sites which depend on nonfree
>>> Javascript code even to see the contents of the pages. Any site
>>> hosted on ‘wix.com’ has this problem, and so do some other sites.
>>> Referring people to such pages to read their contents is, in effect,
>>> urging them to run those nonfree programs—so please don’t refer to
>>> those pages. (Such pages also break the Web, so they deserve
>>> condemnation for two reasons.)
> While orgmode.org is not developed in the same repository with the Org
> mode itself, I have a gut feeling that we still have to follow GNU
> coding standards on the website. However, WORG contains links to various
> blogs, reddit, stackoverflow, and even youtube and it feels right. I
> notice that I am confused. I would like to hear Bastien's opinion on the
> topic.
>
> Best,
> Ihor
>
>
-- 
"Do not neglect to do good, and to share what you have." - Hebrews 13:16a
Michael Powe
Naugatuck CT USA
powem@ctpowe.net

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Bastien Guerry]

Thanks for raising this issues.

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Fair point. Paypal requires non-free javascript. Github as well,
> AFAIK.

I've removed the GitHub Sponsors and Paypal links from orgmode.org.

I've not removed the link to https://liberapay.com: I suppose it is
usable without requiring non-free Javascript, but I've not checked.
If someone wants to check, that'd be appreciated.

I've not removed every links to github.com on orgmode.org: e.g. the
link to TEC's homepage at the bottom of the website is still here.

The reason is that browsing TEC's GitHub profile does not require
non-free Javascript: I can browse it fine with M-x eww.

I guess we shall remove references to non-free software (like the
Sublime Text editor - I will do this later on.)

> While orgmode.org is not developed in the same repository with the Org
> mode itself, I have a gut feeling that we still have to follow GNU
> coding standards on the website. 

Yes -- please report other problems for orgmode.org.

> However, WORG contains links to various blogs, reddit,
> stackoverflow, and even youtube and it feels right. I notice that I
> am confused. I would like to hear Bastien's opinion on the topic.

Here is my view on this: the orgmode.org website is part of the GNU
project because Org is part of the GNU project, hence the root pages
of https://orgmode.org should follow the GNU standards.

Worg is different: it is a community-driven documentation about Org.
Even though worg contents are licensed under GNU FDL, they are not
part of the GNU project.

If needed, we can make this clearer on the website or even host worg
on a dedicated domain name.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Ihor Radchenko]

CCing RMS as this discussion might be of interest for him.
The previous emails in the thread are in
https://list.orgmode.org/b074b191-b06f-928d-284c-7a7ee5d97ce8@ctpowe.net/T/#u

Bastien Guerry <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Thanks for raising this issues.
>
> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Fair point. Paypal requires non-free javascript. Github as well,
>> AFAIK.
>
> I've removed the GitHub Sponsors and Paypal links from orgmode.org.

To clarify, I did not intend to make you remove those links, but rather
wanted to hear your opinion and open a discussion.

As Michael pointed out, https://my.fsf.org/donate itself contains a
paypal payment option:

>> PayPal (not recommended: requires nonfree JavaScript)

Given the apparent contradictory statement in the GNU Coding Standards
(section 8), I feel that either we misunderstand something or the
standards should be updated adding guidelines for the donation services.

Donations (maybe except certain cryptocurrencies) are inherently
non-free because even for direct bank transfers users are often forced
to use bank "security" apps. At the same time, limiting the donation
options will do a lot of harm to FSF projects - cryprocurrency entry
barriers are too high for many users to donate even if they wish to and
not all the countries allow crypto legally.

The entry barriers are important. From my own experience, compared to
just bank details, some online payment made a difference in my decisions
to donate. Easy and familiar web services really facilitate actual
donations (as well as feedback from new users).

I wish there were more easy donation options for an ordinary user to
donate to FSF projects without a need to rely on non-free software. Note
that even liberapay, while providing bank transfer payments, also offers
paypal. Yet, it is the best option I am aware of. Maybe FSF could step
up providing such service?

> I've not removed the link to https://liberapay.com: I suppose it is
> usable without requiring non-free Javascript, but I've not checked.
> If someone wants to check, that'd be appreciated.

I just tried to setup a payment via liberapay using firefox with librejs
extension. I was unable to complete the card payment. It appears that
card payment service liberapay is using requires non-free javascript. I
might be wrong though. It was the first time I actually tried using
liberapay.

In any case, given FSF website providing paypal option, liberapay should
not be an issue. But it leaves us with no real option to allow _easy_
donations yet committing to FSF guidelines.

> I've not removed every links to github.com on orgmode.org: e.g. the
> link to TEC's homepage at the bottom of the website is still here.
>
> The reason is that browsing TEC's GitHub profile does not require
> non-free Javascript: I can browse it fine with M-x eww.

> I guess we shall remove references to non-free software (like the
> Sublime Text editor - I will do this later on.)

Sounds reasonable.

>> However, WORG contains links to various blogs, reddit,
>> stackoverflow, and even youtube and it feels right. I notice that I
>> am confused. I would like to hear Bastien's opinion on the topic.
>
> Here is my view on this: the orgmode.org website is part of the GNU
> project because Org is part of the GNU project, hence the root pages
> of https://orgmode.org should follow the GNU standards.
>
> Worg is different: it is a community-driven documentation about Org.
> Even though worg contents are licensed under GNU FDL, they are not
> part of the GNU project.
>
> If needed, we can make this clearer on the website or even host worg
> on a dedicated domain name.

If we really want to be very strict about following FSF, we might advice
users about alternative ways to view youtube (invidious/youtube-dl). I
just tried stackoverflow and reddit via librejs. The links there can be
opened and be read. I do not think that we need to care much about
commenting.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[c.buhtz]

Dear folks,

I really have to apologize after sleeping one night over that topic. I
feel a bit ashamed or intimidated; not sure if these are the correct
terms to express my feelings.

In short: My goal was to learn not to troll!

On 2022-02-25 18:39 Bastien Guerry <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
> I've removed the GitHub Sponsors and Paypal links from orgmode.org.

I am surprised that my comment caused such big changes. Of course I
appreciate them but I am a totally new and fresh user to the project in
the meaning I am not "important". But it speaks for the "vibes" of your
project and its flat hierarchies that you even take opinions like mine
into account so serious.

My initial "comment" about the GitHub-and-FSF-rules was just because
someone quoted that FSF rules. My goal with expressing my own
interpretation about that FSF-rules in context of your use of GitHub
was not to change/modify your project. I even do not know enough of
your internal rules and organization. I am not in position to tell
someone how to run their projects.

It was more a question about the current state (using GitHub in context
of the FSF rules) and the background of your decisions to learn more
about how to organize FOSS projects and FOSS rules. Let me say it again:
I tried to learn not to troll!

I definitely would say that the way I "asked" or expressed my humble
opinion about your GitHub-use was definitely wrong and to offensive. My
apologize again.

Thanks a lot for listen to me.
Christian

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Bastien]

Hi Ihor,

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> To clarify, I did not intend to make you remove those links, but rather
> wanted to hear your opinion and open a discussion.

Sorry if I seemed to act upon this too hastily.

Here is my opinion on the matter.

I think we should consider two separate issues: (1) whether the
donation mechanism requires users to load non-free Javascript and (2)
whether the support mechanism is from an organization that actually
supports Free Software maintainers and developers.

Paypal is bad on (1) and irrelevant on (2): removing the Paypal link
seems like a good move.  The amount I receive from paypal (~150€ per
year) is not something that can justify promoting Paypal for the ~30K
monthly visitors of https://orgmode.org.

GitHub Sponsors is bad on (1) and looks better on (2) but it requires
donators to use GitHub, something that the GNU project does not want
to encourage.  If _I_ want to use GitHub Sponsors this is my decision,
but a website from the GNU project should not advertize this donation
mechanism.

Liberapay is apparently not so good on (1) but the source code is
under the CC0 license (this choice seems weird but I won't argue about
it) and we can contact the developers so that they get better on (1).
It seems to me a good solution for (2): it is run by people who care
about Free Software developers and maintainers.

So, promoting liberapay.com as the *only* donation mechanism seems the
best move here.  If we give the choice between GitHub Sponsors, Paypal
and liberapay.com, donators will take the easy way and liberapay.com
will miss opportunities to get more users and supporters.

> As Michael pointed out, https://my.fsf.org/donate itself contains a
> paypal payment option:
>
>>> PayPal (not recommended: requires nonfree JavaScript)

The FSF is not the GNU project.  I think it is good that GNU software
maintainers can be more strict about this and avoid Paypal.

> The entry barriers are important. From my own experience, compared to
> just bank details, some online payment made a difference in my decisions
> to donate. Easy and familiar web services really facilitate actual
> donations (as well as feedback from new users).

I understand.

If one day more Org contributors appear on a Worg page where they
advertize their need for donations (and I encourage Org contributors
to add such a page), I would have no problem with links to donations
services that are not aligned with GNU standards.

But that's because Worg is a community-driven website, distinct from
the official https://orgmode.org page. (As I said, perhaps a dedicated
domain name for Worg would be useful.)

> I wish there were more easy donation options for an ordinary user to
> donate to FSF projects without a need to rely on non-free software. 

Sure!  In the meantime, M-x list-packages RET could advertize ways to
support maintainers.  GNU ELPA packages would follow GNU standards on
what donation services to accept, while NonGNU ELPA and MELPA would
probably be less strict.  But in general, having the links there would
raise awareness about the maintainers need for support (I myself often
install GNU and NonGNU ELPA packages without reading the associated
website).

> I just tried to setup a payment via liberapay using firefox with librejs
> extension. I was unable to complete the card payment. 

See https://github.com/liberapay/liberapay.com/issues/1374 - I think
there is room for progress.

> But it leaves us with no real option to allow _easy_
> donations yet committing to FSF guidelines.

My experience is that increasing donations is less about making it
technically easier for potential donators and more about communicating
about the need for donations.  Which is not easy to do _at all_!

>> I guess we shall remove references to non-free software (like the
>> Sublime Text editor - I will do this later on.)
>
> Sounds reasonable.

Done.

> If we really want to be very strict about following FSF, we might advice
> users about alternative ways to view youtube (invidious/youtube-dl). 

Adding this a notice for Worg would be useful, yes.  (There is no
youtube.com links on https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/orgweb.)

Best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Bastien]

c.buhtz@posteo.jp writes:

> 3.  This site does not make clear how to submit bug reports.

Indeed!  I've now added the email address of the mailing list on
the https://orgmode.org home page, it is good to have it here.

Thanks for raising this issue.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Bastien]

Hi Christian,

<c.buhtz@posteo.jp> writes:

> I am not in position to tell someone how to run their projects.

You are definitly in position to share suggestions, like anyone else,
and we collectively discuss them on this list.

I explained a bit more why I took the decision to remove the GitHub
Sponsor and the Paypal links, I hope this sounds reasonable to you.

I did not take the decision to please you (please don't take this
personally!) but because I think it is a good move, thanks again for
raising this issue.

Best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Bastien]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Russell Adams <RLAdams@adamsinfoserv.com> writes:
>
>> https://orgmode.org/ is administered by Org maintainers. I'm not sure
>> where that repo is, and it's not publicly writable. Suggesting edits
>> for that site is certainly appropriate on this mailing list.
>
> It is https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/orgweb/
>
> Timothy, would you mind adding this link somewhere in the web page
> footer?

Done, thanks.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Bastien]

c.buhtz@posteo.jp writes:

> And on the Worg page (which is "official" from the new users point
> of view) there is also a GitHub link.

This should be fixed with this commit:
https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg/commit/584d5e023f4ec47e32bcc24acc38e0ef0bf6d07a

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Bastien]

Hi Russell,

Russell Adams <RLAdams@adamsinfoserv.com> writes:

> I'm not sure what a clear answer is here. I don't like having any
> mention of Github and non-free services myself, but I respect that we
> need to support the maintainers and that may require using common
> services.

I reckon this is often a matter of trade-off here, but as orgmode.org
is about a GNU software, following the GNU standards comes first, the
need for donations comes second.

Let me insist on this: donations come when you ask and justify the
trouble for donators, not when you display a link, whatever service
you are using.

I would even consider that teaching free software maintainers how to
effectively ask for donations is a more urgent task (but not more
important) than building a loyal donation web service.

2 cts,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Jean Louis]

Thanks, that will help new users to communicate. 👍

Maybe you could make XMPP group for Org move on chat.orgmode.org and let people hoping through various Jabber/XMPP applications.


On February 26, 2022 8:58:31 AM UTC, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
>c.buhtz@posteo.jp writes:
>
>> 3.  This site does not make clear how to submit bug reports.
>
>Indeed!  I've now added the email address of the mailing list on
>the https://orgmode.org home page, it is good to have it here.
>
>Thanks for raising this issue.


Jean

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Jean Louis]

Open up few crypto accounts and let people donate their crypto money as well. 

Jean

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I think we should consider two separate issues: (1) whether the
  > donation mechanism requires users to load non-free Javascript and (2)
  > whether the support mechanism is from an organization that actually
  > supports Free Software maintainers and developers.

I think both of these criteria are fitting _for a GNU package_.

In my own life, I might make payments for various purposes, some
which are not about software at all.  So I wouldn't insist on (2)
when deciding whether to buy something or donate to a cause.
But I would always insist on (1).

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Bradley M. Kuhn]

I'm a happy org-mode user who usually just lurks on the list, but I have some
expertise of note to share on the issue of taking donations and proprietary
Javascript.

I've spent much time over the last 25 years working for and/or helping to run
various non-profit organizations related to FOSS.  I've worked on the problem
of “how do you take donations while limiting the amount of proprietary
software both the donors and NPO staff have to use?” extensively.

To my knowledge, the current answers to these questions are:

 (0) You cannot take online donations by credit/debit card or ACH without
     either:

      (a) handling PCI-compliance rules yourself, which is a high burden and
          out of reach for most small organizations. (I have researched this
          extensively, and am pretty sure that the level of self-PCI
          compliance that would be required for this would mean the
          organization would need to employ at least one person who will
          spend almost full-time working on PCI compliance.)

      (b) having the donor run some proprietary Javascript [0].

 (1) It is impossible for an organization to take credit card donations
     without its staff sometimes using non-FOSS (usually in the form of
     proprietary Javascript).  It's very difficult to take ACH donations of
     any kind without the staff occasionally using proprietary software.

I'd be glad to discuss how I've come to these assessments in more detail if
that's useful to the discussion.  (However, I won't have time to check back
into this thread until Tuesday due to a deadline.)

I generally recommend PayPal to projects that want to minimize proprietary
Javascript because you cn often make it all the way through a PayPal
transaction (if you already have a PayPal account with a credit card attached
and you're in the USA) with Javascript fully turned off.  That's not saying
much, but it's better than other processors.  I retest that every 3-6 months;
the last time I tested it was November.

Comparatively, Stripe is particularly bad because they mandate that you load
their proprietary Javascript on your own page (see below in footnote for
more) if you want them to handle the PCI compliance.


[0] Someone mentioned liberapay — but it simply uses Stripe and/or PayPal
    underneath for the donations.  I just double checked this and noticed
    that the payment page has:
         <script src="https://js.stripe.com/v3/"></script>
    which is what Stripe requires if you want them to handle the PCI
    compliance.

  -- bkuhn

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> Thanks, that will help new users to communicate. 👍
>
> Maybe you could make XMPP group for Org move on chat.orgmode.org and let people hoping through various Jabber/XMPP applications.

Some time ago, Timothy shared an idea of creating a discourse forum at
orgmode.org. Discourse is FOSS and provides a familiar interface +
ability to create and tag topics. The question is integration with Org
ML, but I am pretty sure that discourse might be much easier to start
with for new users. WDYT?

As for chat, don't we have IRC #org-mode?
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-irc.html

Best,
Ihor

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Max Nikulin]

>>> I guess we shall remove references to non-free software (like the
>>> Sublime Text editor - I will do this later on.)
>>
> Ihor Radchenko writes:
>> Sounds reasonable.
> 
On 26/02/2022 15:57, Bastien wrote:
> Done.

Frankly speaking, I never considered mention of sublime text in such 
context as endorsing it. Even though such linking might cause transition 
in both direction, I thought it was targeting mostly current sublime 
users. I believed that:
- It makes first step toward using Org easier since such possibility 
becomes discoverable through search engines.
- It reduces friction in heterogeneous teams when an Emacs user proposes 
to use Org markup. Later demonstrating features of real Org Mode may 
become a convincing argument to try GNU Emacs.

As to search engines, some page on Worg may work almost as well. 
Visitors of the main page who came noticed a mention or a link has less 
chance to be hooked however.

Actually I considered Atom and VS Code (that are still on the main page) 
quite similar. I admit that they are open source, but are available 
packages are really free? Maybe my opinion was just distorted by a 
mention of a project aiming to remove telemetry code from VS Code, 
however even that code is actually free, not to mention that privacy is 
completely distinct issue.

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Timothy]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 846 bytes --]

Hi Max,

>>>> I guess we shall remove references to non-free software (like the
>>>> Sublime Text editor - I will do this later on.)

> Frankly speaking, I never considered mention of sublime text in such context as
> endorsing it. Even though such linking might cause transition in both direction,
> I thought it was targeting mostly current sublime users. I believed that:
> - It makes first step toward using Org easier since such possibility becomes
>  discoverable through search engines.
> - It reduces friction in heterogeneous teams when an Emacs user proposes to use
>   Org markup. Later demonstrating features of real Org Mode may become a
>  convincing argument to try GNU Emacs.

My 2c: I think being overly zealous with this is a bad idea. We need to meet
people where they are, not where we want them to be.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Michael Powe]

On 2/27/2022 07:58, Timothy wrote:
> Hi Max,
>
>>>>> I guess we shall remove references to non-free software (like the
>>>>> Sublime Text editor - I will do this later on.)
>> Frankly speaking, I never considered mention of sublime text in such context as
>> endorsing it. Even though such linking might cause transition in both direction,
>> I thought it was targeting mostly current sublime users. I believed that:
>> - It makes first step toward using Org easier since such possibility becomes
>>   discoverable through search engines.
>> - It reduces friction in heterogeneous teams when an Emacs user proposes to use
>>    Org markup. Later demonstrating features of real Org Mode may become a
>>   convincing argument to try GNU Emacs.
> My 2c: I think being overly zealous with this is a bad idea. We need to meet
> people where they are, not where we want them to be.
>
Hello,

Second that emotion.

I iterate a previous message I wrote: FSF has a PayPal link on its 
donations page. I don't think org needs to compete for the "purity" 
prize. The amount of money is less important than letting people express 
their support for the software, by voting with their wallet.

I live in the US. My bank is local. I can't make purchases outside the 
US without pre-clearing them with the bank -- unless I use PayPal. The 
latter is my choice. Everyone has their threshold of inconvenience.  
Mine happens to be getting on the phone with the bank every time I want 
to press the "buy" (or "donate") button.

Re: VS Code. Many extensions are copyrighted by their creators (e.g., 
Oracle, Salesforce). I know nothing about the legalese of copyright 
notices. Still, I would not expect that these extensions are free in the 
GNU sense.

Thanks.

mp

> -- 
> "Do not neglect to do good, and to share what you have." - Hebrews 13:16a
> Michael Powe
> Naugatuck CT USA
> powem@ctpowe.net

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Bastien]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> Maybe you could make XMPP group for Org move on chat.orgmode.org and
> let people hoping through various Jabber/XMPP applications.

There are already IRC channels for discussion in real time, I don't
think setting up another way to have live discussions is worth the
maintainance burden.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Bastien Guerry]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Some time ago, Timothy shared an idea of creating a discourse forum at
> orgmode.org. Discourse is FOSS and provides a familiar interface +
> ability to create and tag topics. The question is integration with Org
> ML, but I am pretty sure that discourse might be much easier to start
> with for new users. WDYT?

Discourse is nice but I'm not favor of installing an instance for Org.

Beginners often ask questions on reddit.com and stackoverflow.com (and
perhaps elsewhere): perhaps some regular users of these websites could
serve as "contributors stewards", redirecting interesting bug reports,
patches or feature requests on this mailing list.

My gut feeling is that we should focus on making the mailing list more
accessible for beginners, more useful for everyone before considering
setting up another communication channel.

I have a new version for Woof! (https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/woof) that I'd
like to finalize and set up this month - let's see how this helps and
reopen this topic in three or four months?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Bastien Guerry]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> Open up few crypto accounts and let people donate their crypto money
> as well. 

I'm not in favor of this.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Neil Jerram]

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On Sun, 27 Feb 2022, 17:19 Bastien Guerry, <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:

> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>
> > Open up few crypto accounts and let people donate their crypto money
> > as well.
>
> I'm not in favor of this.
>

+1.  I assume this conversation is supposed to be ethically driven, and
cryptocurrencies are at least ethically questionable for their use of
energy.

Best wishes,
     Neil

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Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Bastien]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> So I wouldn't insist on (2)
> when deciding whether to buy something or donate to a cause.

When the cause is about supporting Free Software contributors, I think
it's good to favor donation services that support Free Software, hence
the choice for promoting the liberapay.com donation link only.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Tim Cross]

Bastien Guerry <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

>
> Discourse is nice but I'm not favor of installing an instance for Org.
>
> Beginners often ask questions on reddit.com and stackoverflow.com (and
> perhaps elsewhere): perhaps some regular users of these websites could
> serve as "contributors stewards", redirecting interesting bug reports,
> patches or feature requests on this mailing list.
>
> My gut feeling is that we should focus on making the mailing list more
> accessible for beginners, more useful for everyone before considering
> setting up another communication channel.
>

+1. We cannot possibly support every user's preferred platform. Besides,
didn't Discord just do an IPO? This increases the likelihood the
platform will now have a much higher revenue focus and could mean it may
transition over time to either a paid model or add advertising or some
other revenue raising model.

(I notice with interest that Google has started transitioning some of
its services which were previously free to a paid model and I wonder if
the free service gravy train might be coming to an end?)

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Timothy]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1093 bytes --]

Hi Tim,

> +1. We cannot possibly support every user’s preferred platform. Besides,
> didn’t Discord just do an IPO? This increases the likelihood the

Not Discord, /Discourse/ — <https://www.discourse.org/>,
<https://github.com/discourse/discourse>.

It’s basically a good self-hostable OSS forum, who also offer limited free
hosting to other OSS projects but provide hosting as a commercial service.
Arguably much more in line with the goals of the FSF than Reddit/StackExchange.

For example discourses, see:
<https://discourse.mozilla.org/>
<https://discourse.nixos.org/>
<https://neovim.discourse.group/>

It’s rather nice at being able to have separate categories of discussion (e.g.
bugs, feature requests, development work-in-progress, workflow discussions) all
in one place and allowing people to only be subscribed to what they’re
interested in. When a thread drifts off-topic you can create a new linked thread
in another category, which is rather nice. It’s also much more searchable, along
with a few other benefits.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[c.buhtz]

On 2022-02-27 18:17 Bastien Guerry <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
> My gut feeling is that we should focus on making the mailing list more
> accessible for beginners, more useful for everyone before considering
> setting up another communication channel.

I totally agree with that.

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Ihor Radchenko]

Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> writes:

> Actually I considered Atom and VS Code (that are still on the main page) 
> quite similar. I admit that they are open source, but are available 
> packages are really free? Maybe my opinion was just distorted by a 
> mention of a project aiming to remove telemetry code from VS Code, 
> however even that code is actually free, not to mention that privacy is 
> completely distinct issue.

Note that not all Emacs packages are truly free (GPL), which is why we
have MELPA and non-GNU ELPA. Nothing can stop people from creating a
proprietary extension either.

As for Atom and VS Code, we do not refer to them directly, but only to
GPL-licensed Org extensions for Atom and VS Code. In general, we cannot
expect non-GNU software to avoid promoting proprietary software. 

Here is what GNU standards say on this issue:

>> What about chains of links? Following links from nearly any web site
>> can lead eventually to promotion of non-free software; this is
>> inherent in the nature of the web. Here’s how we treat that.
>> 
>> You should not refer to AT&T’s web site if that recommends AT&T’s
>> non-free software packages; you should not refer to a page p that
>> links to AT&T’s site presenting it as a place to get some non-free
>> program, because that part of the page p itself recommends and
>> legitimizes the non-free program.
>> 
>> However, if p contains a link to AT&T’s web site for some other
>> purpose (such as long-distance telephone service), that is no reason
>> you should not link to p.

When linking to Org extensions for Atom and VS Code, not presenting them
as a place to get non-free software (because Atom and VS Code are not
non-free themselves). Non-free extension are a deeper level of the link
chain. I interpret GNU Standards statement as allowing second-level
links to non-free software.

In contrast, Org extension for Sublime requires installing non-free
Sublime editor to work. I see it against GNU standards.

Note that I do not fully agree with how strict are GNU standards exactly
because of the discoverability issues you mentioned. But I do not feel
that we should ignore GNU standards in Org without getting approval from
RMS or GNU. Certainly not when Bastien (the maintainer) decided to
follow GNU standards more strictly.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien Guerry <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Discourse is nice but I'm not favor of installing an instance for Org.
>
> Beginners often ask questions on reddit.com and stackoverflow.com (and
> perhaps elsewhere): perhaps some regular users of these websites could
> serve as "contributors stewards", redirecting interesting bug reports,
> patches or feature requests on this mailing list.

That's an unfortunate truth. reddit and stackoverflow require users to
run non-free JS to write comments. Discourse would provide a familiar
interface for beginners + not force them to use non-free JS. In
addition, there will be no risk to lose information or the annoying
reddit behaviour when no comments can be added to old posts.

> My gut feeling is that we should focus on making the mailing list more
> accessible for beginners, more useful for everyone before considering
> setting up another communication channel.
>
> I have a new version for Woof! (https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/woof) that I'd
> like to finalize and set up this month - let's see how this helps and
> reopen this topic in three or four months?

I do like the idea of Woof!. My main concern is that adding new features
to Woof! (like tagging threads, adding more categories, etc) is putting
even more load on you. I am not sure if Woof! can be on-par with
Discourse features given that you are the only contributor.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Ihor Radchenko]

"Bradley M. Kuhn" <bkuhn@ebb.org> writes:

> I'd be glad to discuss how I've come to these assessments in more detail if
> that's useful to the discussion.  (However, I won't have time to check back
> into this thread until Tuesday due to a deadline.)
>
> I generally recommend PayPal to projects that want to minimize proprietary
> Javascript because you cn often make it all the way through a PayPal
> transaction (if you already have a PayPal account with a credit card attached
> and you're in the USA) with Javascript fully turned off.  That's not saying
> much, but it's better than other processors.  I retest that every 3-6 months;
> the last time I tested it was November.
>
> Comparatively, Stripe is particularly bad because they mandate that you load
> their proprietary Javascript on your own page (see below in footnote for
> more) if you want them to handle the PCI compliance.
>
>
> [0] Someone mentioned liberapay — but it simply uses Stripe and/or PayPal
>     underneath for the donations.  I just double checked this and noticed
>     that the payment page has:
>          <script src="https://js.stripe.com/v3/"></script>
>     which is what Stripe requires if you want them to handle the PCI
>     compliance.

Thanks for the insight! Could you elaborate a bit why you consider
PayPal better than Librepay (Stripe)? I made an attempt to pay using
PayPal with LibreJS extension and I was unable to go through even a
little. For Librepay, I made all the way to the point where I had to run
Stripe.

Now, we have removed PayPal and left Librepay option in orgmode.org, but
if you think that PayPal should be considered better compared to
Librepay ethically, we would like to hear your opinion.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Bradley M. Kuhn]

> "Bradley M. Kuhn" <bkuhn@ebb.org> writes:
> > I generally recommend PayPal to projects that want to minimize
> > proprietary Javascript because you cn often make it all the way through a
> > PayPal transaction (if you already have a PayPal account with a credit
> > card attached and you're in the USA) with Javascript fully turned off.

Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Could you elaborate a bit why you consider PayPal better than Librepay
> (Stripe)?

Note that Librepay isn't a payment processor; it's a fundraising site that is
a consumer (rather than provider) of payment processing.  Underneath,
Librepay uses PayPal and/or Stripe (and maybe other payment processors, but I
think those are the primary two, and possibly the only two, that Librepay
supports).

In my work at Software Freedom Conservancy (and at other charities before
it), I've evaluated and keep good tabs on how much proprietary software users
are required to install (usually in the form of proprietary Javascript) to
donate money via various payment processors.  It *is* possible to get all the
way through a PayPal donation without running proprietary Javascript once you
already have a PayPal account.  This isn't true with Stripe; every Stripe
transaction needs proprietary Javascript.

Meanwhile, PayPal definitely keeps getting worse, so their advantage over
Stripe isn't particularly strong.  I have heard from folks outside the USA
that it's absolutely impossible to do anything on PayPal without proprietary
Javascript.  When you're geolocated as being in the USA, things are slightly
better with PayPal with regard to Javascript requirements.  If you are in the
USA and have a pre-existing PayPal account, then likely you can get all the
way through the payment without running proprietary Javascript.

> I made an attempt to pay using PayPal with LibreJS extension and I was
> unable to go through even a little.  …  For Librepay, I made all the way to
> the point where I had to run Stripe.

Right, but that is merely comparing an apple martini to an apple juice box,
and pointing out the latter didn't cause the user to become intoxicated.
AFAICT, Librepay doesn't process payments without Stripe or PayPal (or some
other payment processor).  Obviously if you like the add-on services that
Librepay offers for donation solicitation/management on top of payment
processing, then by all means use that too.  But ultimately underneath,
you'll be using some payment processor.

> Now, we have removed PayPal and left Librepay option in orgmode.org, but if
> you think that PayPal should be considered better compared to Librepay
> ethically, we would like to hear your opinion.

Again, the individual (and I think it is just one person) that runs Librepay
is providing a service that some folks like, but that service isn't
processing payments, AFAIK.

If you're encourage people to donate to orgmode via Librepay, you're
encouraging them to use either PayPal or Stripe, ultimately, since they won't
finish the donation transaction without using an underlying payment
processor.  As I said, if you like the add-ons that Librepay is providing on
top of PayPal and/or Stripe, then of course enjoy them, since Librepay
*itself* (AFAIK) is licensed freely.  But, if you goal is to find a payment
processor that doesn't require users to (at least sometimes) run proprietary
Javascript, then there is basically no way to do it, unless you do the PCI
compliance yourself, which is a staffing commitment. (I discussed this in my
prior email.)

Thank you again for orgmode.  I use it every day!

  -- bkuhn

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> If one day more Org contributors appear on a Worg page where they
> advertize their need for donations (and I encourage Org contributors
> to add such a page), I would have no problem with links to donations
> services that are not aligned with GNU standards.

I have been recently exploring Liberapay and stumbled upon
https://liberapay.com/about/teams.

It is possible to create a "team" and distribute the donations across
multiple developers. I believe that it is one of a simple (from
perspective of user) ways to direct donations to the willing Org
contributors without creating confusion among donors on where to donate.

WDYT?

Best,
Ihor

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Ihor Radchenko]

Dear All,

Please drop c.buhtz@posteo.jp from the CC list in the future replies. (I
am asking on behalf of c.buhtz@posteo.jp)

Best,
Ihor

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Bastien]

Hi Ihor,

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> I have been recently exploring Liberapay and stumbled upon
> https://liberapay.com/about/teams.
>
> It is possible to create a "team" and distribute the donations across
> multiple developers. I believe that it is one of a simple (from
> perspective of user) ways to direct donations to the willing Org
> contributors without creating confusion among donors on where to donate.

Yes, good idea.  Can you create an account on https://liberapay.com
and sent me the email you used in private?

I have created a liberapay team, I will invite you there.  

Then there are a few settings to discuss before we can switch the link
on orgmode.org, but I think it will be an easy step forward.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I have been recently exploring Liberapay and stumbled upon
  > https://liberapay.com/about/teams.

Is it possible to make a donation through Liberapay without running
any nonfree software?  Including nonfree Javascript software send
by the site itself?

And is it possible for the intended recipients to receive the money
without running nonfree software including JS?

If the answers are yes and yes, maybe that system is ethical and good.
Otherwise, it is not a solution, only a different variation of the problem.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[briangpowell]

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Yuge fan of RMS, Richard M Stallman & the OrgMode community--long time user
of GNU software & OrgMode

As always, much agree with RMS

But, suggest donations to support free software be made using Monero--I use
the open source "MyMonero" wallet software; its cryptocurrency
software--its free & open source & donors can make uncensorable donations
as privately as they would like in a currency that cannot be seized by
banksters or the NWO NaZi governments running things to hell right now

All a software engineer need do is publish a public key number

Here's mine for
example: 42JjWPnWmWYQaLmtnDyMjC8sCG6YmZ1ViTiJfHWZrSbKfuMWQ27qduYHttrsxYRCyf4UHbFAWQk4y4nTfuUf2jfGD7LWzne


On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 11:54 AM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > I have been recently exploring Liberapay and stumbled upon
>   > https://liberapay.com/about/teams.
>
> Is it possible to make a donation through Liberapay without running
> any nonfree software?  Including nonfree Javascript software send
> by the site itself?
>
> And is it possible for the intended recipients to receive the money
> without running nonfree software including JS?
>
> If the answers are yes and yes, maybe that system is ethical and good.
> Otherwise, it is not a solution, only a different variation of the problem.
>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
> Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
> Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
>
>
>
>

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Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Ihor Radchenko]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>   > I have been recently exploring Liberapay and stumbled upon
>   > https://liberapay.com/about/teams.
>
> Is it possible to make a donation through Liberapay without running
> any nonfree software?  Including nonfree Javascript software send
> by the site itself?
>
> And is it possible for the intended recipients to receive the money
> without running nonfree software including JS?
>
> If the answers are yes and yes, maybe that system is ethical and good.
> Otherwise, it is not a solution, only a different variation of the problem.

AFAIU, no and no. See
https://list.orgmode.org/CAFm0skG_-80iQ-TO-hduvVt_GHQWosOHBeHJ61dyA=wNg8vc_w@mail.gmail.com/T/#m322d74a1efb4e3773ae2df7b6bda4505c4b5fa15

It looks like there is no free option as long as banks are involved.

Cryptocurrencies are easier in terms of software freedom, but their
legal status is not stable (e.g. cryptocurrency is illegal in the
country I now live in).

Best,
Ihor

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[briangpowell]

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Understood Ihor

I respect your position & predicament

But I've published my public key address; I know you're an avid & prolific
donor of free software--watch your code donations submitted daily--I'll
continue to support free software forever of course & thanks very much to
RMS & the FSF for starting the free software movement & supporting its
growth for many years

Suggest you stay away from PayPal & ALL the other methods you
suggested--PayPal for example has been shutting down the accounts of
"freedom fighters" & can & will continue to do so whenever they wish, for
whatever reason they choose

You have permission to use my name as your fake software developer "nom de
guerre" & I can relay the funding to you in whatever manner you
desire--PayPal is fine...until they ban me from that--notes can be made
during the transaction of what the project is that you're developing or
whatever & then I can relay the money

I pay my taxes on crypto gains; but, if I make no money on the transaction
in such a transaction, well then I owe no taxes, so I wouldn't have to
worry about that--and what laws would you be violating in your country?
None that I can think of

Just out of curiosity: What country do you reside?

Is it Russia? Last I heard Russia is accepting BitCoin for oil, right?

I mean, just look what happened in Canada: Truckers used a funding site,
funding site was shuttered & bank accounts seized & the list of everyone
that donated was published "accidentally"

If they used Monero instead, then NONE of the above problems would have
manifested--Monero is as NOT trackable & its uncensorable







On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 9:22 PM Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> wrote:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
> >   > I have been recently exploring Liberapay and stumbled upon
> >   > https://liberapay.com/about/teams.
> >
> > Is it possible to make a donation through Liberapay without running
> > any nonfree software?  Including nonfree Javascript software send
> > by the site itself?
> >
> > And is it possible for the intended recipients to receive the money
> > without running nonfree software including JS?
> >
> > If the answers are yes and yes, maybe that system is ethical and good.
> > Otherwise, it is not a solution, only a different variation of the
> problem.
>
> AFAIU, no and no. See
>
> https://list.orgmode.org/CAFm0skG_-80iQ-TO-hduvVt_GHQWosOHBeHJ61dyA=wNg8vc_w@mail.gmail.com/T/#m322d74a1efb4e3773ae2df7b6bda4505c4b5fa15
>
> It looks like there is no free option as long as banks are involved.
>
> Cryptocurrencies are easier in terms of software freedom, but their
> legal status is not stable (e.g. cryptocurrency is illegal in the
> country I now live in).
>
> Best,
> Ihor
>
>

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Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Ihor Radchenko]

briangpowell <briangpowellms@gmail.com> writes:

> I respect your position & predicament
> ...
> Suggest you stay away from PayPal & ALL the other methods you
> suggested--PayPal for example has been shutting down the accounts of
> "freedom fighters" & can & will continue to do so whenever they wish, for
> whatever reason they choose

Clarification: I personally do not have legal issues with using
cryprocurrencies as long as Ukrainian (which I am a citizen of)
jurisdiction is considered. However, cryptocurrencies can be problematic
depending on the country where you want to use the cryptocurrencies.
Some countries straight ban the cryptocurrencies, some limit their usage
as a payment media, some have tricky issues with taxing (for example, it
is common that cryptocurrencies are considered similarly to stocks and
are a subject of special/increased/multiple taxation).
See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cryptocurrency_by_country_or_territory
I would be unfair if we leave no option for contributors from the
countries with tricky crypto status or contributors who do not want to
use crypto for other reasons (e.g. Bastien voiced against crypto).

In this thread, I am not particularly concerned about the payment
processor. The discussion about free software options for payment has
happened a bit earlier and we concluded that we have no options
involving banks (unfortunately). FSF also does not provide a legal
solution as organization.

At this point, I'd rather discuss the fair distribution of donations
across Org contributors. AFAIK, liberapay provides a pretty decent
policy on this and allows people to donate to Org developers without a
need to choose whom to donate to (yet there is still an option in
liberapay to donate to individual developers directly). See
https://liberapay.com/about/teams

Best,
Ihor

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > Is it possible to make a donation through Liberapay without running
  > > any nonfree software?  Including nonfree Javascript software send
  > > by the site itself?
  > >
  > > And is it possible for the intended recipients to receive the money
  > > without running nonfree software including JS?
  > >
  > > If the answers are yes and yes, maybe that system is ethical and good.
  > > Otherwise, it is not a solution, only a different variation of the problem.

  > AFAIU, no and no. See
  > https://list.orgmode.org/CAFm0skG_-80iQ-TO-hduvVt_GHQWosOHBeHJ61dyA=wNg8vc_w@mail.gmail.com/T/#m322d74a1efb4e3773ae2df7b6bda4505c4b5fa15

This is disappointing but not surprising,

GNU packages should not steer people towards running nonfree software.
As a consequence, they should not suggest people donate using payment services
that _require_ the donor to run a nonfree program.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Ihor Radchenko]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> GNU packages should not steer people towards running nonfree software.
> As a consequence, they should not suggest people donate using payment services
> that _require_ the donor to run a nonfree program.

AFAIU, there are no nonfree payment services, except some crypto
payments.

So, does what you say imply that GNU packages should not provide any
donation options, except crypto (via free payment software)?

Best,
Ihor

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Tom Gillespie]

> GNU packages should not steer people towards running nonfree software.
> As a consequence, they should not suggest people donate using payment services
> that _require_ the donor to run a nonfree program.

A slight variant of Ihor's question.

While GNU packages should not steer people toward nonfree software,
I assume that there is nothing that prohibits GNU contributors from
accepting donations via non-free systems.

This thread suggests that it is no other option if devs also do not want
to steer people toward cryptocurrencies (which some consider to be as
ethically important as not steering people toward nonfree software).

My question is whether the website for a GNU package can include links
to the websites of individual developers with a note that you can provide
financial support to the project by supporting individuals. In the end the
user still winds up using nonfree JS, but is GNU living up to its principles
by virtue of the extra layer of indirection?

Given that https://www.fsf.org/about/ways-to-donate/ does include paypal
as an option, with a disclaimer, is a disclaimer not a sufficient solution for
GNU packages as well?

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Tim Cross]

Tom Gillespie <tgbugs@gmail.com> writes:

>> GNU packages should not steer people towards running nonfree software.
>> As a consequence, they should not suggest people donate using payment services
>> that _require_ the donor to run a nonfree program.
>
> A slight variant of Ihor's question.
>
> While GNU packages should not steer people toward nonfree software,
> I assume that there is nothing that prohibits GNU contributors from
> accepting donations via non-free systems.
>
> This thread suggests that it is no other option if devs also do not want
> to steer people toward cryptocurrencies (which some consider to be as
> ethically important as not steering people toward nonfree software).
>
> My question is whether the website for a GNU package can include links
> to the websites of individual developers with a note that you can provide
> financial support to the project by supporting individuals. In the end the
> user still winds up using nonfree JS, but is GNU living up to its principles
> by virtue of the extra layer of indirection?
>
> Given that https://www.fsf.org/about/ways-to-donate/ does include paypal
> as an option, with a disclaimer, is a disclaimer not a sufficient solution for
> GNU packages as well?

Given that the FSF has a link to PayPal on their donations page , I
think we can do the same for the org project. All that is required is
that we do like the FSF does and put a bit of text beside it stating
"Not recommended - requires nonfree Javascript". We should also include
a postal address where people could send in donations to provide an
alternative for those who really don't want to use the non-free service
(which doens't have to be paypal of course - any of them would likely be
as good). 

I also notice the FSF will also accept donations via credit card. There
is no credit card processing service which is based on libre software,
so the FSF is using non-free software to process those donations as
well (I guess technically, they are not directly encouraging people use
the non-free credit card processing service, but apparently it is OK for
the FSF to use it to process those donations?).

I do notice that RMS says "should not" rather than "must not", which I
think provides some 'wriggle room'. Provided we provide some way to
donate without using non-free software and state that we do not
recommend using service XXXX which uses non-free Javascript (they all
seem to at some level) and provided we are prepared to switch to a libre
solution if and when one becomes available (which I doubt it ever will),
we are probably OK. However, I am surprised that out of all the options,
the FSF uses PayPal. 

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Michael Powe]

On 6/27/2022 19:42, Tim Cross wrote:
> Tom Gillespie <tgbugs@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>> GNU packages should not steer people towards running nonfree software.
>>> As a consequence, they should not suggest people donate using payment services
>>> that _require_ the donor to run a nonfree program.
>> A slight variant of Ihor's question.
>>
>> While GNU packages should not steer people toward nonfree software,
>> I assume that there is nothing that prohibits GNU contributors from
>> accepting donations via non-free systems.
>>
>> This thread suggests that it is no other option if devs also do not want
>> to steer people toward cryptocurrencies (which some consider to be as
>> ethically important as not steering people toward nonfree software).
>>
>> My question is whether the website for a GNU package can include links
>> to the websites of individual developers with a note that you can provide
>> financial support to the project by supporting individuals. In the end the
>> user still winds up using nonfree JS, but is GNU living up to its principles
>> by virtue of the extra layer of indirection?
>>
>> Given that https://www.fsf.org/about/ways-to-donate/ does include paypal
>> as an option, with a disclaimer, is a disclaimer not a sufficient solution for
>> GNU packages as well?
> Given that the FSF has a link to PayPal on their donations page , I
> think we can do the same for the org project. All that is required is
> that we do like the FSF does and put a bit of text beside it stating
> "Not recommended - requires nonfree Javascript". We should also include
> a postal address where people could send in donations to provide an
> alternative for those who really don't want to use the non-free service
> (which doens't have to be paypal of course - any of them would likely be
> as good).

You don't chop down a tree by snipping off the branches at the top.

Anyone completely serious about a refusal to use nonfree tools for 
making donations will send a check in the mail, literally. I raised the 
point about FSF using PayPal months ago, when this thread started. The 
response was thunderous silence. I don't like PP as a company. Its 
profits finance the activities of some truly repugnant people. The JS 
connection widget is about the most innocuous bit of that company. I 
only use PP when a CC won't work - mostly, buying overseas, which 
purchases my bank blocks without exception. No business from which I 
purchase regularly uses any other payment service. That's the reality of 
the commercialization of the internet. It blows chunks, but here we are.

I don't want to hear about ethical purity from people using products 
made by Apple, one of the most corrupt and corrupting companies on the 
planet; or, from those who shop at Amazon - ditto. I've never purchased 
a book from Amazon, but three times I've purchased products through its 
"marketplace," and I used to subscribe to its Prime video service. I 
don't buy products made in China (e.g., clothes, ceramics). But, it's 
impossible to write this message without using products made there. 
These kinds of casual lapses of ethical behavior are organic to our 
present network design.

If someone finds a payment processor that uses free software, and is 
available for users in the US, I certainly will sign up for it. That the 
FSF isn't using one suggests such services are thin on the ground, or 
nonexistent.

Thanks.

mp

-- 
"Do not neglect to do good, and to share what you have." - Hebrews 13:16a
Michael Powe
Naugatuck CT USA
powem@ctpowe.net

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Ihor Radchenko]

Michael Powe <powem@ctpowe.net> writes:

> Anyone completely serious about a refusal to use nonfree tools for 
> making donations will send a check in the mail, literally.

Would providing something like
"Contact us via email if you prefer to make a donation using alternative
mechanism"
help if we add such statement to https://liberapay.com/org-mode page?

Best,
Ihor

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Ihor Radchenko]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> Given that the FSF has a link to PayPal on their donations page , I
> think we can do the same for the org project. All that is required is
> that we do like the FSF does and put a bit of text beside it stating
> "Not recommended - requires nonfree Javascript".

> I also notice the FSF will also accept donations via credit card. There
> is no credit card processing service which is based on libre software,
> so the FSF is using non-free software to process those donations as
> well (I guess technically, they are not directly encouraging people use
> the non-free credit card processing service, but apparently it is OK for
> the FSF to use it to process those donations?).

There is an important difference here. FSF does provide a JS-free
donation option because it has a special agreement with payment services
to accept credit card payments without JS (according to RMS [1]).

[1] https://orgmode.org/list/E1nOYmK-0002TU-Vd@fencepost.gnu.org

We do not have such an option for Org.

Also, note that Liberapay is better at least because they may add some
JS-free options in future and they did have free JS in the past that
unfortunately had some issues and had to be removed:
https://github.com/liberapay/liberapay.com/issues/1279

> We should also include a postal address where people could send in
> donations to provide an alternative for those who really don't want to
> use the non-free service (which doens't have to be paypal of course -
> any of them would likely be as good).

Then we need someone with stable postal address to handle such
donations. Also, what about privacy of the address?

Alternatively, we can just provide a contact email to discuss
alternative donation options in general (with postal being one of the
options).

> I do notice that RMS says "should not" rather than "must not", which I
> think provides some 'wriggle room'. Provided we provide some way to
> donate without using non-free software and state that we do not
> recommend using service XXXX which uses non-free Javascript (they all
> seem to at some level) and provided we are prepared to switch to a libre
> solution if and when one becomes available (which I doubt it ever will),
> we are probably OK.

We would definitely prefer Libre solution if there were any.
I think that a real working option could be adding some explanation text
describing the FSF-compliance of the donations to
https://liberapay.com/org-mode page.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > AFAIU, there are no nonfree payment services, except some crypto
  > payments.

In Europe, at least, there is bank transfer.  If you go to a bank
branch, I think, you can do transfers to someone else's account without
running any particular software.

  > So, does what you say imply that GNU packages should not provide any
  > donation options, except crypto (via free payment software)?

Yes, sad to say they should not directly offer donation methods.

The FSF manages to accept credit card donations without making donors
run nonfree software.  But it is not easy to arrange that.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Vikas Rawal]

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>
>
>   > AFAIU, there are no nonfree payment services, except some crypto
>   > payments.
>
> In Europe, at least, there is bank transfer.  If you go to a bank
> branch, I think, you can do transfers to someone else's account without
> running any particular software.


Bank uses free software on their system?

Or are we to merely shift to services where nonfree software runs on
somebody else's computer?

Go to an internet kiosk and make the payment?

VR

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Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

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Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > AFAIU, there are no nonfree payment services, except some crypto
>   > payments.
>
> In Europe, at least, there is bank transfer.  If you go to a bank
> branch, I think, you can do transfers to someone else's account without
> running any particular software.

This is becoming harder and harder, because banks push everyone to use
onlinebanking — with non-free apps and non-free Javascript. And it costs
money: A bank transfer by going to the branch is nowadays more expensive
than the amount people usually donate per month.

>   > So, does what you say imply that GNU packages should not provide any
>   > donation options, except crypto (via free payment software)?
>
> Yes, sad to say they should not directly offer donation methods.

So they should rather link to liberapay, so it is not a direct offer?

After the initial setup liberapay usually does the automatic renewal, so
it is not necessary to interact with non-free Javascript after the
initial setup. That’s not perfect, but much better than PayPal.
https://liberapay.com/about/payment-processors

> The FSF manages to accept credit card donations without making donors
> run nonfree software.  But it is not easy to arrange that.

And it does not work for many people in Europe (I for example have no
credit card).

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Tim Cross]

"Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de> writes:

> [[PGP Signed Part:Undecided]]
>
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
>> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
>> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>>
>>   > AFAIU, there are no nonfree payment services, except some crypto
>>   > payments.
>>
>> In Europe, at least, there is bank transfer.  If you go to a bank
>> branch, I think, you can do transfers to someone else's account without
>> running any particular software.
>
> This is becoming harder and harder, because banks push everyone to use
> onlinebanking — with non-free apps and non-free Javascript. And it costs
> money: A bank transfer by going to the branch is nowadays more expensive
> than the amount people usually donate per month.
>

Yes, in Australia, there are many rural towns which no longer have any
local bank branch at all. You might have to travel 100s of miles to
reach a bank branch office (and there won't be any public transport
either). The push is very much towards on-line services and I very much
doubt there is a single bank in Australia which doesn't use non-free
Javascript in their interface.

Still, my main point, which I note RMS did not comment on, is that if
the FSF can have a link to Paypal (with a note stating it is not
recommended), then I don't see why a GNU project cannot do similar. All
that is necessary is to provide an alternative, which could be as simple
as a postal address to send donations to. Concerns over privacy of the
address can be dealt with by using a post box or a mail service, though
I don't see any major issue to be concerned about wrt a mail address.

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Michael Powe]

On 6/27/2022 21:54, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Michael Powe <powem@ctpowe.net> writes:
>
>> Anyone completely serious about a refusal to use nonfree tools for
>> making donations will send a check in the mail, literally.
> Would providing something like
> "Contact us via email if you prefer to make a donation using alternative
> mechanism"
> help if we add such statement to https://liberapay.com/org-mode page?

Hello,

I think it would be good to let people know that they could do so.

In re: the mailing address, this should be a post office box, or 
possibly, a business address, not a residential street address. Aside 
from the privacy concern of putting your personal address out there, I 
think it's better marketing to avoid telling users to send their money 
to someone's home. ;-)

Now, I've been using the business name "MAP Analytics" above my home 
address for years. The business exists only in my imagination, but it 
serves the purpose when an "organization" name is required.

Thanks.

mp

-- 
"Do not neglect to do good, and to share what you have." - Hebrews 13:16a
Michael Powe
Naugatuck CT USA
powem@ctpowe.net

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > Yes, sad to say they should not directly offer donation methods.

  > So they should rather link to liberapay, so it is not a direct offer?

You can't make a serious point by twisting words.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 952 bytes --]


Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > > Yes, sad to say they should not directly offer donation methods.
>
>   > So they should rather link to liberapay, so it is not a direct offer?
>
> You can't make a serious point by twisting words.

I do make a serious point: by linking to liberapay who are actively
searching for ways to get rid of proprietary software, those links are
most likely to become usable without proprietary software once a
practical method to donate without proprietary software exists.

But yes, wrapping that into a cheeky answer is not the most effective
way to make this point.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I do make a serious point: by linking to liberapay who are actively
  > searching for ways to get rid of proprietary software, those links are
  > most likely to become usable without proprietary software once a
  > practical method to donate without proprietary software exists.

I agree that links to liberapay might someday work without the donor's
running nonfree software.  But that is not likely to occur this year,
and for it to occur in this decade is a long shot.

So please don't put links to liberapay into GNU package web pages.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Tim Cross]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > I do make a serious point: by linking to liberapay who are actively
>   > searching for ways to get rid of proprietary software, those links are
>   > most likely to become usable without proprietary software once a
>   > practical method to donate without proprietary software exists.
>
> I agree that links to liberapay might someday work without the donor's
> running nonfree software.  But that is not likely to occur this year,
> and for it to occur in this decade is a long shot.
>
> So please don't put links to liberapay into GNU package web pages.


Please explain how you can argue that position when the FSF has such a
link on their web page? Why is it OK for the FSF to do this to raise
funds, but not acceptable for projects to do the same? 

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Ihor Radchenko]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> I agree that links to liberapay might someday work without the donor's
> running nonfree software.  But that is not likely to occur this year,
> and for it to occur in this decade is a long shot.
>
> So please don't put links to liberapay into GNU package web pages.

Clarification: Links to Liberapay do work without running non-free
software (you can try opening the link yourself). It is only the payment
process that does not work. But we may still try to put some alternative
free payment method in the project description on
https://liberapay.com/org-mode

Best,
Ihor

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Michael Powe]

On 6/30/2022 23:53, Tim Cross wrote:
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
> I agree that links to liberapay might someday work without the donor's
> running nonfree software.  But that is not likely to occur this year,
> and for it to occur in this decade is a long shot.
>
> So please don't put links to liberapay into GNU package web pages.
>>
>> Please explain how you can argue that position when the FSF has such a
>> link on their web page? Why is it OK for the FSF to do this to raise
>> funds, but not acceptable for projects to do the same?

Why are there interstate highways in Hawaii? Why ask why?

(I suspect that RMS doesn't have final say over that decision.)

Thanks.

mp

-- 
"Do not neglect to do good, and to share what you have." - Hebrews 13:16a
Michael Powe
Naugatuck CT USA
powem@ctpowe.net

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Samuel Banya]

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My two cents on this:
 * Why not just have a single fallback person that takes the hit of having to use a JS based payment method in the meantime?
 * Or why not just keep the address and encourage mailing donations themselves to a single location (probably FSF office, no?)
I might not know anything about how wiring money works in the context of requiring JS for the transactions, but I feel like if it were just one person to receive payment, or a single address, you could probably remove half of the problems as a result while Librepay becomes more readily available and less dependent on JS based payment APIs.

Sincerely,

Sam

On Fri, Jul 1, 2022, at 1:54 PM, Michael Powe wrote:
> 
> On 6/30/2022 23:53, Tim Cross wrote:
> > Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> >
> > I agree that links to liberapay might someday work without the donor's
> > running nonfree software.  But that is not likely to occur this year,
> > and for it to occur in this decade is a long shot.
> >
> > So please don't put links to liberapay into GNU package web pages.
> >>
> >> Please explain how you can argue that position when the FSF has such a
> >> link on their web page? Why is it OK for the FSF to do this to raise
> >> funds, but not acceptable for projects to do the same?
> 
> Why are there interstate highways in Hawaii? Why ask why?
> 
> (I suspect that RMS doesn't have final say over that decision.)
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> mp
> 
> -- 
> "Do not neglect to do good, and to share what you have." - Hebrews 13:16a
> Michael Powe
> Naugatuck CT USA
> powem@ctpowe.net
> 
> 
> 

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Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Clarification: Links to Liberapay do work without running non-free
  > software (you can try opening the link yourself). It is only the payment
  > process that does not work.

I am using metonymy, saying "the link works" to mean "the link's
functionality works."  It makes the wording shorter, and everyone
can understand it -- including you, if you try.

What purpose is served by refusing to understand?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Bank uses free software on their system?

I suppose that would depend on the bank.  It's the bank's affair.
If the bank's software is free, the bank enjoys freedom.
Otherwise, the nonfree software denies the bank freedom.

Either way, it has no effect on us.  We are not running that software,
so it does not deny us our freedom.

I would advise any bank to insist on free software, but if it doesn't
listen, that is the bank's loss, not ours.  I feel sorry for the bank
for this error, but that is not a reason to boycott it.

  > Or are we to merely shift to services where nonfree software runs on
  > somebody else's computer?

Who is morally responsible for running the nonfree software is the
most important question, but you dismiss that as an insignificant
detail.

  > Go to an internet kiosk and make the payment?

That is a fune way way.  However, I usually mail a check instead.  It
doesn't require me to run any nonfree software (it doesn't use
software at all), and I can do it from home.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Ihor Radchenko]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>   > Clarification: Links to Liberapay do work without running non-free
>   > software (you can try opening the link yourself). It is only the payment
>   > process that does not work.
>
> I am using metonymy, saying "the link works" to mean "the link's
> functionality works."  It makes the wording shorter, and everyone
> can understand it -- including you, if you try.
>
> What purpose is served by refusing to understand?

I did not refuse to understand. FYI, English is not my mother tongue and
I sometimes miss fine details of the word meanings.

I wrote the above reply because I was not 100% sure if you know the
Liberapay web page itself does not run non-Free JS. Judging from this
reply of yours, you do understand it, which means that my clarification
did not serve much purpose for you, but should not heart the
understanding. It could be useful though if I were right in my doubt.

Note that my clarification did not imply that I propose to leave the
current state of affairs with Liberapay not providing any non-free way
to donate. In my other message I suggested to add some kind of postal
address to allow users to donate by sending a check (a Free
alternative). That way, users could go to Liberapay page and see the
Free way to donate + non-free ways (which we should indicate as not
recommended). Not every person is even aware how to use checks these
days (I only sent a check once in my life and it was not
straightforward).

FYI, saying that GNU projects cannot ask for donations is quite
upsetting and also discouraging. I'd prefer to find an ethically
acceptable alternative.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Thomas Dye]

Aloha Ihor,

If you like, please send a mailing address privately. I’ll happily contribute to support your good work on Org mode. 

All the best,
Tom

> On Jul 1, 2022, at 5:57 PM, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> 
>>> Clarification: Links to Liberapay do work without running non-free
>>> software (you can try opening the link yourself). It is only the payment
>>> process that does not work.
>> 
>> I am using metonymy, saying "the link works" to mean "the link's
>> functionality works."  It makes the wording shorter, and everyone
>> can understand it -- including you, if you try.
>> 
>> What purpose is served by refusing to understand?
> 
> I did not refuse to understand. FYI, English is not my mother tongue and
> I sometimes miss fine details of the word meanings.
> 
> I wrote the above reply because I was not 100% sure if you know the
> Liberapay web page itself does not run non-Free JS. Judging from this
> reply of yours, you do understand it, which means that my clarification
> did not serve much purpose for you, but should not heart the
> understanding. It could be useful though if I were right in my doubt.
> 
> Note that my clarification did not imply that I propose to leave the
> current state of affairs with Liberapay not providing any non-free way
> to donate. In my other message I suggested to add some kind of postal
> address to allow users to donate by sending a check (a Free
> alternative). That way, users could go to Liberapay page and see the
> Free way to donate + non-free ways (which we should indicate as not
> recommended). Not every person is even aware how to use checks these
> days (I only sent a check once in my life and it was not
> straightforward).
> 
> FYI, saying that GNU projects cannot ask for donations is quite
> upsetting and also discouraging. I'd prefer to find an ethically
> acceptable alternative.
> 
> Best,
> Ihor
> 

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Ihor Radchenko]

Thomas Dye <tsd@tsdye.online> writes:

> Aloha Ihor,
>
> If you like, please send a mailing address privately. I’ll happily contribute to support your good work on Org mode. 

Thanks for the offer!
I afraid that sending a check to me specifically is not a good idea,
especially from a person based in USA.

I know little about depositing received checks, so I had to search
through my bank website in China (I have no access to my non-Chinese
bank branches here). The result is disappointing. They charge close to
200USD [1] for collecting checks.

As you can see, there is little point sending me checks.

Probably, USA->China is a bit extreme case, but, as I can see, bank fees
are not uncommon for checks. Thus, small donations are likely impossible
via check. Now, I feel like even the available free donation options are
not really suitable in practice for reasons unrelated to free software.

Best,
Ihor

[1] http://www.icbc.com.cn/ICBC/%E6%B5%B7%E5%A4%96%E5%88%86%E8%A1%8C/%E5%B7%A5%E9%93%B6%E6%BE%B3%E9%97%A8/en/InvestmentServices/SecuritiesTrading/ServiceCharge/ChequeCollection/ChequeCollection.htm

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Vikas Rawal]

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>   > Bank uses free software on their system?
>
> I suppose that would depend on the bank.  It's the bank's affair.
> If the bank's software is free, the bank enjoys freedom.
> Otherwise, the nonfree software denies the bank freedom.
>
> Either way, it has no effect on us.  We are not running that software,
> so it does not deny us our freedom.
>
> I would advise any bank to insist on free software, but if it doesn't
> listen, that is the bank's loss, not ours.  I feel sorry for the bank
> for this error, but that is not a reason to boycott it.
>
>
It is amusing that you talk of a bank as if it was a person. I don't know
what it even means when you say that a bank may or may not enjoy freedom.

More seriously, it is peculiar that you do not see anything problematic in
promoting businesses of entities who rely on non-free software for their
business. Are you, in turn, not promoting non-free software then? A part of
profit the bank makes by doing business with you is shared with companies
making non-free software.



>   > Or are we to merely shift to services where nonfree software runs on
>   > somebody else's computer?
>
> Who is morally responsible for running the nonfree software is the
> most important question, but you dismiss that as an insignificant
> detail.
>

I have done no such thing, and I don't see why you should ascribe
indifference to moral issues to me. That said, I could argue quite the
opposite: that by your argument, your moral responsibility seems to end at
what software runs on your computer. There is no moral responsibility for
anything else.


>   > Go to an internet kiosk and make the payment?
>
> That is a fune way way.  However, I usually mail a check instead.  It
> doesn't require me to run any nonfree software (it doesn't use
> software at all), and I can do it from home.
>

I find this absurd. You are welcome to do what you like, and to believe
that this is somehow morally superior.

I don't see this discussion leading to anything if it is only about
personal preferences and views.

V.

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Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Thomas S. Dye]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Thomas Dye <tsd@tsdye.online> writes:
>
>> Aloha Ihor,
>>
>> If you like, please send a mailing address privately. I’ll 
>> happily contribute to support your good work on Org mode. 
>
> Thanks for the offer!
> I afraid that sending a check to me specifically is not a good 
> idea,
> especially from a person based in USA.
>
> I know little about depositing received checks, so I had to 
> search
> through my bank website in China (I have no access to my 
> non-Chinese
> bank branches here). The result is disappointing. They charge 
> close to
> 200USD [1] for collecting checks.
>
> As you can see, there is little point sending me checks.
>
> Probably, USA->China is a bit extreme case, but, as I can see, 
> bank fees
> are not uncommon for checks. Thus, small donations are likely 
> impossible
> via check. Now, I feel like even the available free donation 
> options are
> not really suitable in practice for reasons unrelated to free 
> software.

Yes, your Chinese bank charges exorbitant fees for cashing US 
checks.  That won't work.

It seems odd that our embrace of software freedom should keep us 
from collaborating as fully as we'd like.

Keep up the good work in any case!

All the best,
Tom

-- 
Thomas S. Dye
https://tsdye.online/tsdye

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Jeremie Juste]

Hello,


For some reason, I increased the score of an email, when the body of the
email contains "discouraged" :-). The argument raised by Timothy
particularly interesting. 

So I've taken the time to read this thread again to understand better
the issue.

As far as I understand, there is currently no
technology that can send electronic payment to someone and at the same time achieve
three goals.

- Promote user freedom (by running free javascript)
- Is a legal form of payment (crypto currency) [1]
- Is decentralized and anonymous

An exception is the FSF which has a special agreement to run free JS,
but it is something that might be costly to implement for individuals.

I think we can all agree that freesoftware developpers and
maintainers are in many cases underfunded for the value they create.  

[1]:https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/24/22691472/china-central-bank-cryptocurrency-illegal-bitcoin

On Friday,  1 Jul 2022 at 13:53, Tim Cross wrote:
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
>> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
>> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>>
>>   > I do make a serious point: by linking to liberapay who are actively
>>   > searching for ways to get rid of proprietary software, those links are
>>   > most likely to become usable without proprietary software once a
>>   > practical method to donate without proprietary software exists.
>>
>> I agree that links to liberapay might someday work without the donor's
>> running nonfree software.  But that is not likely to occur this year,
>> and for it to occur in this decade is a long shot.
>>
>> So please don't put links to liberapay into GNU package web pages.
>
> Please explain how you can argue that position when the FSF has such a
> link on their web page? Why is it OK for the FSF to do this to raise
> funds, but not acceptable for projects to do the same? 

Here, I think that the FSF, even while having a free JS alternative,  is
still giving the freedom to potential donors to
restrict their own freedom to fund project that are important for them, by
using Paypal.

My question is the following:  Can we have the freedom to deliberately
restrict our freedom to fund projects that we care about, that give us
freedom in other dimensions?

I am not suggesting to encourage anyone to use non free method of
payments, but allowing them to do so if they want to.  I'd like to see
solutions towards free electronic payments emerge eventually, but I'm
not sure if restricting funding of free software will make that happen.


Best regards,
Jeremie Juste

In the long run we are all dead.

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Jean Louis]

On 2022-06-20 04:22, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Cryptocurrencies are easier in terms of software freedom, but their
> legal status is not stable (e.g. cryptocurrency is illegal in the
> country I now live in).

Are you sure? Look at this here:
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/17/ukraine-legalizes-cryptocurrency-sector-as-donations-pour-in.html

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> On 2022-06-20 04:22, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
>> Cryptocurrencies are easier in terms of software freedom, but their
>> legal status is not stable (e.g. cryptocurrency is illegal in the
>> country I now live in).
>
> Are you sure? Look at this here:
> https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/17/ukraine-legalizes-cryptocurrency-sector-as-donations-pour-in.html

I do not currently live in Ukraine. Crypto is illegal in China.
In any case, legal status and taxation of cryptocurrencies can be tricky
at least for some developers in some countries. See
https://orgmode.org/list/87mte8xdse.fsf@localhost

Also, as I mentioned in other emails, it's not just about legal status.
Other Org devs dislike the idea of using crypto for other reasons.
Bastien directly opposed it [1]. Another dev is not in favor because of
volatility (from personal communication).

[1] https://orgmode.org/list/87mticqldf.fsf@gnu.org

The combination of the above reasons makes it difficult to accept crypto
while keeping things fair.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I don't see this discussion leading to anything if it is only about
  > personal preferences and views.

It's about the GNU Project's moral stand (nonfree software is an
injustice, and encouraging people to use it is wrong), and what
follows from that.

It's also about the GNU project policy of not steering the public to
run nonfree-software.  You can find that in the GNU Coding Standards,
node References.

People asked questions such as "What would you do?" so I answered
them.

  > More seriously, it is peculiar that you do not see anything problematic in
  > promoting businesses of entities who rely on non-free software for their
  > business.

To see that as problematic would be a rather extreme position.
Do you hold that position?  Do you know anyone who does?
Do you know anyone that boycotts or rebukes businesses
for running non-free software internally?  I don't.

The GNU Project takes a less extreme position: if a business asks
customers to use nonfree software to communicate with the business, we
advise people to refuse to use that software.

Sometimes it's possible to do business with that company
and avoid the nonfree software.  Sometimes it's not.

As this example shows, there are various different kinds of
scenarios involving businesses and nonfree software.  The GNU Project
makes these distinctions and treats them differently.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Timothy]

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Hello All,

I’ve been viewing this thread with trepidation for a while, and I’ve reached
a point where I feel compelled to add another 2c of mine.

> It’s about the GNU Project’s moral stand (nonfree software is an
> injustice, and encouraging people to use it is wrong), and what
> follows from that.
>
> The GNU Project takes a less extreme position: if a business asks
> customers to use nonfree software to communicate with the business, we
> advise people to refuse to use that software.
>
> Sometimes it’s possible to do business with that company
> and avoid the nonfree software.  Sometimes it’s not.
>
> As this example shows, there are various different kinds of
> scenarios involving businesses and nonfree software.  The GNU Project
> makes these distinctions and treats them differently.

This is all very well and good, however in this case we don’t seem to be dealing
with “a company” per se so much as the entire financial sector.

Hence, I find the question underlying this thread to be whether we should be so
uncompromising in avoiding directing users to non-free JS, that maintainers
should be effectively prohibited from soliciting donations.

Forgive me for this ideological transgression, but I personally find this
absurd. I hold that the GNU project and FSF should do everything reasonably
possible to promote FSF and help support the lovely people who devote time an
effort into enriching FOSS. I don’t think it’s news to anyone that FOSS devs are
overwhelmingly underappreciated and under-compensated for the work they do. We
do not do this for the money, but it dignifies the work we do and allows some of
us to devote more time to working on FOSS.

Adding significant road blocks between philanthropic individuals looking to
support a project they like and the project maintainers helps no one in the end.

In this entire 40+ message thread, only two options have been listed (besides
the FSF’s special arrangement) which do not direct people to non-free JS:
Cryptocurrancy
      Which is volatile in value, regional regulation, and
      individual distaste.
Cheques
      Which are a dying (and in some places dead) form of bank transfer
      instruction. It’s already been established that Ihor would face a US$200 fee
      when collecting a cheque, and over where I am the central bank announced in
      2019 that at a point in the near future the “it will be appropriate to wind up
      the cheque system”. Last year a neighbouring country stopped offering or
      receiving cheques altogether.

I think it’s fair to say these are not viable options, leaving accepting
donations via Liberapay, Stripe, etc. as the only practical options. Until then,
let’s not allow perfect to be the enemy of good.

As it happens though, Stripe seem to have open sourced all of their frontend
code — all of these repos <https://github.com/stripe> seem to be MIT-licensed.
Perhaps we just need to get this to be compatible with liberajs?

Alternatively might the FSF be able to accept donations on the behalf of various
projects and distribute the money accordingly? Should the FSF indeed be the only
organisation capable of taking donations in a proper manner, why isn’t this
offered as a service for the wider community instead of withholding this freedom
and just complaining that others don’t provide it?

So, to sum up the situation I’d suggest we pick from the following options:
⁃ Accept the situation isn’t great
⁃ Build/fund a new tool
⁃ Convince an existing tool to be more libera-friendly
⁃ Use the FSF as an intermediary

Asking maintainers not to accept donations (or making it prohibitively
difficult) is not a solution.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Ihor Radchenko]

"Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.online> writes:

> Yes, your Chinese bank charges exorbitant fees for cashing US 
> checks.  That won't work.
>
> It seems odd that our embrace of software freedom should keep us 
> from collaborating as fully as we'd like.

I think that the last resort not involving non-free software is a bank
transfer (if your bank allows performing bank transfers without running
software*).

Best,
Ihor

* Last time, my bank still forced me to use their bank app even when I
  went to the bank branch and tried to do a bank transfer.

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Ihor Radchenko]

Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> In this entire 40+ message thread, only two options have been listed (besides
> the FSF’s special arrangement) which do not direct people to non-free JS:
> Cryptocurrancy
>       Which is volatile in value, regional regulation, and
>       individual distaste.
> Cheques
>       Which are a dying (and in some places dead) form of bank transfer
>       instruction. It’s already been established that Ihor would face a US$200 fee
>       when collecting a cheque, and over where I am the central bank announced in
>       2019 that at a point in the near future the “it will be appropriate to wind up
>       the cheque system”. Last year a neighbouring country stopped offering or
>       receiving cheques altogether.

You did not list direct bank transfers.
They should be doable given that a person looking to donate contuct us
via email to obtain transfer info. Though I am not 100% sure how it
holds from the point of view of privacy and suceptibility to scam.

> I think it’s fair to say these are not viable options, leaving accepting
> donations via Liberapay, Stripe, etc. as the only practical options. Until then,
> let’s not allow perfect to be the enemy of good.
>
> As it happens though, Stripe seem to have open sourced all of their frontend
> code — all of these repos <https://github.com/stripe> seem to be MIT-licensed.
> Perhaps we just need to get this to be compatible with liberajs?

If Stripe is licensed under GNU-compatible license, it is great news and
the whole problem appears to be solved. There is no requirement that
every appropriately licensed JS code is also correctly recognized
by liberajs.

> So, to sum up the situation I’d suggest we pick from the following options:
> ⁃ Accept the situation isn’t great
> ⁃ Build/fund a new tool
> ⁃ Convince an existing tool to be more libera-friendly
> ⁃ Use the FSF as an intermediary
>
> Asking maintainers not to accept donations (or making it prohibitively
> difficult) is not a solution.

I support this statement.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Michael Powe]

On 7/4/2022 08:38, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> In this entire 40+ message thread, only two options have been listed (besides
>> the FSF’s special arrangement) which do not direct people to non-free JS:
>> Cryptocurrancy
>>        Which is volatile in value, regional regulation, and
>>        individual distaste.
>> Cheques
>>        Which are a dying (and in some places dead) form of bank transfer
>>        instruction. It’s already been established that Ihor would face a US$200 fee
>>        when collecting a cheque, and over where I am the central bank announced in
>>        2019 that at a point in the near future the “it will be appropriate to wind up
>>        the cheque system”. Last year a neighbouring country stopped offering or
>>        receiving cheques altogether.
> [ ... ]
>> So, to sum up the situation I’d suggest we pick from the following options:
>> ⁃ Accept the situation isn’t great
>> ⁃ Build/fund a new tool
>> ⁃ Convince an existing tool to be more libera-friendly
>> ⁃ Use the FSF as an intermediary
>>
>> Asking maintainers not to accept donations (or making it prohibitively
>> difficult) is not a solution.
> I support this statement.

Hello,

Same. This discussion is a classic illustration of making the perfect an 
enemy of the good. In a foot race, the goal is to get across the finish 
line. Similarly, our goal is to get our money where it needs to go. It's 
good to keep that in mind.

Thanks.

mp

-- 
"Do not neglect to do good, and to share what you have." - Hebrews 13:16a
Michael Powe
Naugatuck CT USA
powem@ctpowe.net

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > It seems odd that our embrace of software freedom should keep us 
  > from collaborating as fully as we'd like.

It's not odd at all.  As we see various activities pushed into unjust
computing, which requires nonfree software and online dis-services,
remaining free sometimes becomes difficult.  You may have to refuse to
do certsin things "everyone" does.  If one of those things happens to
be useful for working on GNU, that's not surprising as tyranny marches
on.

The GNU Project, as part of the free software movement, condemns those
systems and calls them illegitimate.

How does this relate to what GNU contributors say and do about those
systems?  Mostly it doesn't.  What each contributor privately does
with computers isn't the GNU Project's business.  We have never tried
to make any rules about what computing contributors can or can't use.
But we do have rules about what computing they should promote publicly
in connection with GNU.

For instance, if you want to buy train tickets and maintain your
freedom, you need to pay cash at a station.  If you buy them by
internet, running nonfree JavaScript and identifying yourself, that is
a loss to your freedom, which we consider unfortunate.  But it doesn't
oppose the GNU Project's work, so we don't need rules about that.
It's up to you.

However, if the web pages for a GNU package were to suggest people buy
train tickets via internet, that would creste a moral conflict:
promoting, in a GNU web site, the very practices that the GNU Project
aims to put an end to.

This is what we have rules about.  Not rules about whether you or
anyone can run a nonfree program.  But rules, yes, against publicly
legitimizing, or steering people toward using, nonfree programs, in
direct connection with the GNU Project.

You can say whatever you like if you do it in another context with no
visible relation to GNU.  The point is that you shouldn't give the
wrong idea of where the GNU Project stands on this issue.

Meanwhile, we have a potential solution for donating money: GNU Taler.
It shows promise, for the long term: even national banks are starting
to get interested in it.  (See taler.net.)  But banking systems are
not set up to interact with it today.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Tim Cross]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>
> However, if the web pages for a GNU package were to suggest people buy
> train tickets via internet, that would creste a moral conflict:
> promoting, in a GNU web site, the very practices that the GNU Project
> aims to put an end to.
>
> This is what we have rules about.  Not rules about whether you or
> anyone can run a nonfree program.  But rules, yes, against publicly
> legitimizing, or steering people toward using, nonfree programs, in
> direct connection with the GNU Project.
>
> You can say whatever you like if you do it in another context with no
> visible relation to GNU.  The point is that you shouldn't give the
> wrong idea of where the GNU Project stands on this issue.
>

Richard,

you still have not responded to my question and what was the main point
which started this thread.

How can it be that on one hand, projects are told they cannot have a
link to a means to make a donation which uses non-free software (such as
paypal), but the FSF has exactly that sort of link to obtain donations
for the FSF. Is this not hypocritical? 

As far as I see it, if having a link to paypal for donations is OK for
the FSF, then it is OK for a GNU project (provided the project also
includes wording to the effect we would prefer people use other methods
AND we provide another method, basically do the same as the FSF)

 

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

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Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> Meanwhile, we have a potential solution for donating money: GNU Taler.
> It shows promise, for the long term: even national banks are starting
> to get interested in it.  (See taler.net.)  But banking systems are
> not set up to interact with it today.

GNU Taler requires an intermediary to clear the coins. This would again
be where a platform like liberapay would come in.

The place to bring that up seems to be the "third payment processor" issue:
https://github.com/liberapay/liberapay.com/issues/1394

And they are planning to do that, so a donation via LiberaPay is an
option to minimize proprietary Javascript — and to get rid of it in the
long run.

Though I do agree that it would be nice to have an *option* to send a
bank transfer and/or have an address to mail a cheque.

To take up criticism before it becomes a discussion: While Github is
annoying, you can read it without running proprietary Javascript (I just
checked that by opening it in eww), and you can interact with it using
email.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > As it happens though, Stripe seem to have open sourced all of their frontend
  > > code — all of these repos <https://github.com/stripe> seem to be MIT-licensed

Wow!  If that is what it might be, it would be great news.  But we had
better verify it carefully, because it sounds too good to be true.
Would someone like to check the details thoroughly?

Here are some questions to check:

1. Does "front-end code" mean the JavasCript code for their payment
pages?  Or else, what is it?  Is it code to use in apps?  The case that
we're concerned with is payment to web sites.

2. Did their release include _all_ of the client code that a user
must run in order to make a payment to a web site that uses Stripe?

3. Do their payment pages actually send that source code, as released?
Or do they send use minified or a compiled version?
Either way. does it exactly correspond to the released source code?

4. Did they label the code they send, for LibreJS to recognize?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > GNU Taler requires an intermediary to clear the coins.

I am not sure what that means.  Could you state in different words
what job that "intermediary" would do?

In fact, the Taler developers are hoping that banks will play two
roles: issuing Taler tokens to spend, and redeeming those that people
receive as payment.

                                                           This would again
  > be where a platform like liberapay would come in.

I don't know whether that is possible -- I suggest you talk with the Taler
developers about it.

  > To take up criticism before it becomes a discussion: While Github is
  > annoying, you can read it without running proprietary Javascript (I just
  > checked that by opening it in eww), and you can interact with it using
  > email.

See https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria-evaluation.html for what's
wrong with Github.  Some actions, such as creating an account, appear
to require running nonfree JS code.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

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Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>   > GNU Taler requires an intermediary to clear the coins.
>
> I am not sure what that means.  Could you state in different words
> what job that "intermediary" would do?
>
> In fact, the Taler developers are hoping that banks will play two
> roles: issuing Taler tokens to spend, and redeeming those that people
> receive as payment.

That’s when banks take up Taler. Before they do, any intermediary can
take that role and use Taler to pool money so it can be sent in larger
regular transactions.

> I don't know whether that is possible -- I suggest you talk with the Taler
> developers about it.

It’s one of the use-cases in their documentation, so I expect that it
should work.

>   > To take up criticism before it becomes a discussion: While Github is
>   > annoying, you can read it without running proprietary Javascript (I just
>   > checked that by opening it in eww), and you can interact with it using
>   > email.
>
> See https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria-evaluation.html for what's
> wrong with Github.  Some actions, such as creating an account, appear
> to require running nonfree JS code.

You can add this to the reasons:¹
https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2022/jun/30/give-up-github-launch/

I’m already trying to find ways to get out, but depending on the
integrations used, that can take quite some time.


¹: # Give Up GitHub: The Time Has Come!

by Denver Gingerich and Bradley M. Kuhn on June 30, 2022

Those who forget history often inadvertently repeat it. Some of us recall that twenty-one years ago, the most popular code hosting site, a fully Free and Open Source (FOSS) site called SourceForge, proprietarized all their code — never to make it FOSS again. Major FOSS projects slowly left SourceForge since it was now, itself, a proprietary system, and antithetical to FOSS. FOSS communities learned that it was a mistake to allow a for-profit, proprietary software company to become the dominant FOSS collaborative development site. SourceForge slowly collapsed after the DotCom crash, and today, SourceForge is more advertising link-bait than it is code hosting. We learned a valuable lesson that was a bit too easy to forget — especially when corporate involvement manipulates FOSS communities to its own ends. We now must learn the SourceForge lesson again with Microsoft's GitHub.
A parody of the GitHub logo, walling off user rights and demanding payment

GitHub has, in the last ten years, risen to dominate FOSS development. They did this by building a user interface and adding social interaction features to the existing Git technology. (For its part, Git was designed specifically to make software development distributed without a centralized site.) In the central irony, GitHub succeeded where SourceForge failed: they have convinced us to promote and even aid in the creation of a proprietary system that exploits FOSS. GitHub profits from those proprietary products (sometimes from customers who use it for problematic activities). Specifically, GitHub profits primarily from those who wish to use GitHub tools for in-house proprietary software development. Yet, GitHub comes out again and again seeming like a good actor — because they point to their largess in providing services to so many FOSS endeavors. But we've learned from the many gratis offerings in Big Tech: if you aren't the customer, you're the product. The FOSS development methodology is GitHub's product, which they've proprietarized and repackaged with our active (if often unwitting) help.

FOSS developers have been for too long the proverbial frog in slowly boiling water. GitHub's behavior has gotten progressively worse, and we've excused, ignored, or otherwise acquiesced to cognitive dissonance. We at Software Freedom Conservancy have ourselves been part of the problem; until recently, even we'd become too comfortable, complacent, and complicit with GitHub. Giving up GitHub will require work, sacrifice and may take a long time, even for us: we at Software Freedom Conservancy historically self-hosted our primary Git repositories, but we did use GitHub as a mirror. We urged our member projects and community members to avoid GitHub (and all proprietary software development services and infrastructure), but this was not enough. Today, we take a stronger stance. We are ending all our own uses of GitHub, and announcing a long-term plan to assist FOSS projects to migrate away from GitHub. While we will not mandate our existing member projects to move at this time, we will no longer accept new member projects that do not have a long-term plan to migrate away from GitHub. We will provide resources to support any of our member projects that choose to migrate, and help them however we can.

There are so many good reasons to give up on GitHub, and we list the major ones on our Give Up On GitHub site. We were already considering this action ourselves for some time, but last week's event showed that this action is overdue.

Specifically, we at Software Freedom Conservancy have been actively communicating with Microsoft and their GitHub subsidiary about our concerns with “Copilot” since they first launched it almost exactly a year ago. Our initial video chat call (in July 2021) with Microsoft and GitHub representatives resulted in several questions which they said they could not answer at that time, but would “answer soon”. After six months of no response, Bradley published his essay, If Software is My Copilot, Who Programmed My Software? — which raised these questions publicly. Still, GitHub did not answer our questions. Three weeks later, we launched a committee of experts to consider the moral implications of AI-assisted software, along with a parallel public discussion. We invited Microsoft and GitHub representives to the public discussion, and they ignored our invitation. Last week, after we reminded GitHub of (a) the pending questions that we'd waited a year for them to answer and (b) of their refusal to join public discussion on the topic, they responded a week later, saying they would not join any public nor private discussion on this matter because “a broader conversation [about the ethics of AI-assisted software] seemed unlikely to alter your [SFC's] stance, which is why we [GitHub] have not responded to your [SFC's] detailed questions”. In other words, GitHub's final position on Copilot is: if you disagree with GitHub about policy matters related to Copilot, then you don't deserve a reply from Microsoft or GitHub. They only will bother to reply if they think they can immediately change your policy position to theirs. But, Microsoft and GitHub will leave you hanging for a year before they'll tell you that!

Nevertheless, we were previously content to leave all this low on the priority list — after all, for its first year of existence, Copilot appeared to be more research prototype than product. Facts changed last week when GitHub announced Copilot as a commercial, for-profit product. Launching a for-profit product that disrespects the FOSS community in the way Copilot does simply makes the weight of GitHub's bad behavior too much to bear.

Our three primary questions for Microsoft/GitHub (i.e., the questions they had been promising answers to us for a year, and that they now formally refused to answer) regarding Copilot were:

    What case law, if any, did you rely on in Microsoft & GitHub's public claim, stated by GitHub's (then) CEO, that: “(1) training ML systems on public data is fair use, (2) the output belongs to the operator, just like with a compiler”? In the interest of transparency and respect to the FOSS community, please also provide the community with your full legal analysis on why you believe that these statements are true.

    We think that we can now take Microsoft and GitHub's refusal to answer as an answer of its own: they obviously stand by their former CEO's statement (the only one they've made on the subject), and simply refuse to justify their unsupported legal theory to the community with actual legal analysis.

    If it is, as you claim, permissible to train the model (and allow users to generate code based on that model) on any code whatsoever and not be bound by any licensing terms, why did you choose to only train Copilot's model on FOSS? For example, why are your Microsoft Windows and Office codebases not in your training set?

    Microsoft and GitHub's refusal to answer also hints at the real answer to this question, too: While GitHub gladly exploits FOSS inappropriately, they value their own “intellectual property” much more highly than FOSS, and are content to ignore and erode the rights of FOSS users but not their own.

    Can you provide a list of licenses, including names of copyright holders and/or names of Git repositories, that were in the training set used for Copilot? If not, why are you withholding this information from the community?

    We can only wildly speculate as to why they refuse to answer this question. However, good science practices would mean that they could answer that question in any event. (Good scientists take careful notes about the exact inputs to their experiments.) Since GitHub refuses to answer, our best guess is that they don't have the ability to carefully reproduce their resulting model, so they don't actually know the answer to whose copyrights they infringed and when and how.

As a result of GitHub's bad actions, today we call on all FOSS developers to leave GitHub. We acknowledge that answering that call requires sacrifice and great inconvenience, and will take much time to accomplish. Yet, refusing GitHub's services is the primary power developers have to send a strong message to GitHub and Microsoft about their bad behavior. GitHub's business model has always been “proprietary vendor lock-in”. That's the very behavior FOSS was founded to curtail, and it's why quitting incumbent proprietary software in favor of a FOSS solution is often difficult. But remember: GitHub needs FOSS projects to use their proprietary infrastructure more than we need their proprietary infrastructure. Alternatives exist, albeit with less familiar interfaces and on less popular websites — but we can also help improve those alternatives. And, if you join us, you will not be alone. We've launched a website, GiveUpGitHub.org, where we'll provide tips, ideas, methods, tools and support to those that wish to leave GitHub with us. Watch that site and our blog throughout 2022 (and beyond!) for more.

Most importantly, we are committed to offering alternatives to projects that don't yet have another place to go. We will be announcing more hosting instance options, and a guide for replacing GitHub services in the coming weeks. If you're ready to take on the challenge now and give up GitHub today, we note that CodeBerg, which is based on Gitea implements many (although not all) of GitHub. Thus, we're also going to work on even more solutions, continue to vet other FOSS options, and publish and/or curate guides on (for example) how to deploy a self-hosted instance of the GitLab Community Edition.

Meanwhile, the work of our committee continues to carefully study the general question of AI-assisted software development tools. One recent preliminary finding was that AI-assisted software development tools can be constructed in a way that by-default respects FOSS licenses. We will continue to support the committee as they explore that idea further, and, with their help, we are actively monitoring this novel area of research. While Microsoft's GitHub was the first mover in this area, by way of comparison, early reports suggest that Amazon's new CodeWhisperer system (also launched last week) seeks to provide proper attribution and licensing information for code suggestions0.

This harkens to long-standing problems with GitHub, and the central reason why we must together give up on GitHub. We've seen with Copilot, with GitHub's core hosting service, and in nearly every area of endeavor, GitHub's behavior is substantially worse than that of their peers. We don't believe Amazon, Atlassian, GitLab, or any other for-profit hoster are perfect actors. However, a relative comparison of GitHub's behavior to those of its peers shows that GitHub's behavior is much worse. GitHub also has a record of ignoring, dismissing and/or belittling community complaints on so many issues, that we must urge all FOSS developers to leave GitHub as soon as they can. Please, join us in our efforts to return to a world where FOSS is developed using FOSS.

We expect this particular blog post will generate a lot of discussion. We welcome you to interact with SFC staff on our public mailing list about this effort.
Footnote

0However, we have not analyzed CodeWhisperer in depth so we cannot say
for sure if Amazon's implementation is compliant with the respective
licenses. Nevertheless, Amazon's behavior here shows sharp contrast with
Microsoft's GitHub: Amazon acknowledges the obvious fact that there are
license obligations that deserve attention and care when building
AI-assisted programming solutions.

(license of this text: cc by-sa)

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Hendursaga]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> Wow!  If that is what it might be, it would be great news.  But we had
> better verify it carefully, because it sounds too good to be true.
> Would someone like to check the details thoroughly?

I'm afraid it is, indeed, too good to be true. The README at https://github.com/stripe/stripe-js lists:

"Note: To be PCI compliant, you must load Stripe.js directly from https://js.stripe.com. You cannot include it in a bundle or host it yourself. This package wraps the global Stripe function provided by the Stripe.js script as an ES module."

Loading https://js.stripe.com/v3/ (the latest version) in a browser yields a minified blob of JS. At the very end, it has an error message, "It looks like Stripe.js was loaded more than one time. Please only load it once per page." Searching this string on Stripe's GitHub organization yields no matches (indeed, searching all of GitHub yields no matches).

The best you could do is mitigate some of the risks, such as detailed in https://mtlynch.io/stripe-recording-its-customers/ but unfortunately that carries additional risks, such as "Stripe clients bear the cost of chargebacks against their application, so they should decide how much information to share with Stripe to reduce those chargebacks."

--
Hendursaga

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Thomas S. Dye]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider 
> ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, 
> ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's 
> example. ]]]
>
>   > It seems odd that our embrace of software freedom should 
>   > keep us 
>   > from collaborating as fully as we'd like.
>
> It's not odd at all.  As we see various activities pushed into 
> unjust
> computing, which requires nonfree software and online 
> dis-services,
> remaining free sometimes becomes difficult.  You may have to 
> refuse to
> do certsin things "everyone" does.  If one of those things 
> happens to
> be useful for working on GNU, that's not surprising as tyranny 
> marches
> on.

In this case, I'm having to refuse to contribute to Org mode 
development in the convenient way I contribute monthly to FSF.

I'm hoping this is an odd situation that can be remedied 
reasonably in favor of my convenience, rather than a tyrannical 
situation that defies reason.

Nevertheless, it is good to know that I'm free to give up freedoms 
to contribute to Org mode development.  @Ihor, will Paypal work 
for you?

All the best,
Tom
-- 
Thomas S. Dye
https://tsdye.online/tsdye

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > That’s when banks take up Taler. Before they do, any intermediary can
  > take that role and use Taler to pool money so it can be sent in larger
  > regular transactions.

If people make it work, I'll cheer.

Regarding GitHub, the thigs we already condemned it for
are much worse for the community than Copialot.  Promoting
bad license practices has been a disaster.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Ihor Radchenko]

"Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.online> writes:

> Nevertheless, it is good to know that I'm free to give up freedoms 
> to contribute to Org mode development.  @Ihor, will Paypal work 
> for you?

Yep. Currently, Paypal is the only option (apart from direct bank
transfers) that works for me.

See https://liberapay.com/org-mode or https://liberapay.com/yantar92/ or
just use my email as Paypal id.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Thomas S. Dye]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> "Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.online> writes:
>
>> Nevertheless, it is good to know that I'm free to give up 
>> freedoms 
>> to contribute to Org mode development.  @Ihor, will Paypal work 
>> for you?
>
> Yep. Currently, Paypal is the only option (apart from direct 
> bank
> transfers) that works for me.
>
> See https://liberapay.com/org-mode or 
> https://liberapay.com/yantar92/ or
> just use my email as Paypal id.

Done.  Thanks for your good work!

All the best,
Tom

-- 
Thomas S. Dye
https://tsdye.online/tsdye

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > "Note: To be PCI compliant, you must load Stripe.js directly from
  > https://js.stripe.com. You cannot include it in a bundle or host
  > it yourself. This package wraps the global Stripe function
  > provided by the Stripe.js script as an ES module."

That is hard for me to understand, since I don't know what "PCI
compliant" means (or who is expected to comply with "PCI" or why).
Also, what is a "ES module" and what are the implications of that?

I wonder if users could run the free version of that JS code
while talking with Stripe.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Tim Cross]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > "Note: To be PCI compliant, you must load Stripe.js directly from
>   > https://js.stripe.com. You cannot include it in a bundle or host
>   > it yourself. This package wraps the global Stripe function
>   > provided by the Stripe.js script as an ES module."
>
> That is hard for me to understand, since I don't know what "PCI
> compliant" means (or who is expected to comply with "PCI" or why).
> Also, what is a "ES module" and what are the implications of that?
>
PCI = "Payment Card Industry Data Security Standard", which is a set of
mandatory and requested measures merchants need to comply with in order
to be permitted to process credit card transactions. There are different
levels of compliance, which affect what the 'merchant' is allowed to do
and/or the fees they must pay.

ES = ECMAScript, the 'real' name for Javascript. 


> I wonder if users could run the free version of that JS code
> while talking with Stripe.

I think that is the point being made - it would seem you cannot.

Richard, in all these discussions, the one question you have not
addressed is why is it OK for the FSF to have a link to paypal on their
donation page (https://my.fsf.org/donate), but you say individual
projects cannot do the same? This seems inconsistent and potentially
hypocritical.  

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[tomas]

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On Thu, Jul 07, 2022 at 11:33:39PM -0400, Richard Stallman wrote:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
>   > "Note: To be PCI compliant, you must load Stripe.js directly from
>   > https://js.stripe.com. You cannot include it in a bundle or host
>   > it yourself. This package wraps the global Stripe function
>   > provided by the Stripe.js script as an ES module."
> 
> That is hard for me to understand, since I don't know what "PCI
> compliant" means (or who is expected to comply with "PCI" or why).

PCI probably refers to "Payment Card Industry" [1]: they set some
standards people processing payments better follow or else.

It's one of those cases where private industry gets to write things
which amount to law. Much worse than traditional law because there
is no democratic oversight to it.

Typically they tend (by accident or by design) to be hostile to
free software (the above is a good example of how that happens:
they attach some magic property to having "loaded Stripe.js from
[some specific URL]" thus hampering the copy, enhancement or
distribution; you're only allowed to study (unless they serve
obfuscated Javascript: I don't feel like looking).

> Also, what is a "ES module" and what are the implications of that?

That might be an "EcmaScript module" [2], given the context.

> I wonder if users could run the free version of that JS code
> while talking with Stripe.

It's kind of free. If you modify it you stop being compliant,
thus being allowed to use it.

Cheers

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_Card_Industry_Data_Security_Standard
[2] https://flaviocopes.com/es-modules/

-- 
t

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Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

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Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > "Note: To be PCI compliant, you must load Stripe.js directly from
>   > https://js.stripe.com. You cannot include it in a bundle or host
>   > it yourself. This package wraps the global Stripe function
>   > provided by the Stripe.js script as an ES module."
>
> That is hard for me to understand, since I don't know what "PCI
> compliant" means (or who is expected to comply with "PCI" or why).

PCI compliance is a requirement by the credit card industry: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/pci-compliance.asp

    Companies that follow and achieve the Payment Card Industry Data Security Standards (PCI DSS) are considered to be PCI compliant.
    The PCI Security Standards Council is responsible for developing the PCI DSS.
    PCI DSS has 12 key requirements, 78 base requirements, and 400 test procedures to ensure that organizations are PCI compliant.
    Being PCI compliant reduces data breaches, protects the data of cardholders, avoids fines, and improves brand reputation.
    PCI compliance is not required by law but is considered mandatory through court precedent.

> Also, what is a "ES module" and what are the implications of that?

ES module (EcmaScript modules) is just the term for the module system in
Javascript.
https://hacks.mozilla.org/2018/03/es-modules-a-cartoon-deep-dive/

> I wonder if users could run the free version of that JS code
> while talking with Stripe.

You could try replacing it in your browser.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

      > PCI compliance is not required by law but is considered
      > mandatory through court precedent.

The crucial questions would be: required _of whom_, in what circumstances?

  > > I wonder if users could run the free version of that JS code
  > > while talking with Stripe.

  > You could try replacing it in your browser.

Yes, that's what I'm thinking of.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

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Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>       > PCI compliance is not required by law but is considered
>       > mandatory through court precedent.
>
> The crucial questions would be: required _of whom_, in what circumstances?

If I understood it correctly, it’s required of the platform. They do not
have the option to ship other code if they want their site to be allowed
to process credit card data. But this is guesswork on my side.

>   > > I wonder if users could run the free version of that JS code
>   > > while talking with Stripe.
>
>   > You could try replacing it in your browser.
>
> Yes, that's what I'm thinking of.

The decentraleyes extension might be able to automate that:
https://decentraleyes.org/test/
https://git.synz.io/Synzvato/decentraleyes

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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