From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Lisp files that load cl-lib in problematical ways Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2023 03:20:18 +0200 Message-ID: <871qdno3l9.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <87il8betof.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83fs3dgxv8.fsf@gnu.org> <835y38qvlg.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcx6eci.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83ttqnm4ti.fsf@gnu.org> <87r0lqoo5x.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83msweu76j.fsf@gnu.org> <87o7gungi1.fsf@dataswamp.org> <22718.8649865397$1697936029@news.gmane.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15046"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:tyJ8jt6nVmGUf3u58HnkxTilc74= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 22 06:48:31 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1quQO7-0003id-1P for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2023 06:48:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1quQNe-0008Sg-3V; Sun, 22 Oct 2023 00:48:02 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1quN8o-00033T-7t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:20:30 -0400 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1quN8m-0001P5-Dd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:20:29 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1quN8j-00077I-J3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2023 03:20:25 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 22 Oct 2023 00:47:58 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:311667 Archived-At: Björn Bidar wrote: >>> But all this is not really relevant for the code that you >>> (or any one of us) write for their own personal use, it is >>> only relevant to code contributed to Emacs. >> >> But we don't know what people who are starting to write >> Elisp today for their personal use go on to contribute to >> Emacs packages that make it to the ELPAs, or core Emacs for >> that matter. That whole distinction does not make any sense >> to me. If it is harmful, which it isn't, no one should use >> it and it doesn't matter in what context, be it personal >> use, ELPA packages, core Emacs, compile time, run time - >> what does it matter? > > From my point of view in some way it does sound like that > some are against it for ideological reasons rather than > technical. E.g. those that makes code unreadable or lets > rewrite something to drop the dependency to not load it. > It does sound like a generational conflict, newer developers > write code sometimes different than older ones. Why not use > cl-lib when it makes it easier to achieve what I want easier > and easier to understand than "vanilla" elisp. But as other > said, this wasn't the point of the thread even when some > messages did sound very ideological. Exactly, that's the way it sounds. >> On the other hand if it _is_ useful - and the number of >> people using it and the number of files where it is used, >> and the number of occurrences indicate that it is - there >> is no reason to disencourage people from using >> it, anywhere. > > I think these things are also often a long the lines we > don't want you to use thing XX for a reason, so discourage > them from even mentioning it. Ideological vs practicism. Again, exactly. Only it is difficult to pinpoint what is the ideology or set of thoughts that drives the anti-cl-lib tendency. As for practicality, I think that has been showed many times over by now, not the least in the amount of usage already present in Emacs. There is no going around that, contributors to Emacs have already voted with their fingers in favor of cl-lib. -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal