From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ted Zlatanov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: composed characters question and suggestions for quail-cyrillic-* Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 10:37:43 -0500 Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos Message-ID: <86y74ccrp4.fsf@lifelogs.com> References: <86lk19mmua.fsf@lifelogs.com> <485298A4.30000@gnu.org> <867ict8awn.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87zlouswvk.fsf@jurta.org> <86skulfo7j.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fxql8j7y.fsf@jurta.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1215531245 7184 80.91.229.12 (8 Jul 2008 15:34:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:34:05 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 08 17:34:48 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KGFD9-0005aB-TD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 17:34:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48328 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KGFCI-0005sk-Jp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 11:33:42 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KGFCC-0005sG-P3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 11:33:36 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KGFCB-0005rb-Ds for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 11:33:36 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=35421 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KGFCB-0005rT-6W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 11:33:35 -0400 Original-Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2]:44305 helo=ciao.gmane.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KGFCA-0001c0-MG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 11:33:35 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1KGFC8-00053S-3z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 15:33:32 +0000 Original-Received: from 38.98.147.130 ([38.98.147.130]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 15:33:32 +0000 Original-Received: from tzz by 38.98.147.130 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 08 Jul 2008 15:33:32 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 151 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.98.147.130 X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" User-Agent: Gnus/5.110011 (No Gnus v0.11) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:u5JTrz/ZmM4idQTn2oW/TUC/nS8= X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:100455 Archived-At: On Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:42:09 +0300 Juri Linkov wrote: JL> 1. It uses the acute accent to put the grave accent above letters, JL> e.g. ("'a" ?à) ("'o" ?ò). A correct way to implement this is to use the JL> acute accent to put the acute accent above letters, and to use the grave JL> accent to put the grave accent above letters, as all Latin input methods JL> do, e.g. ("'a" ?á) ("'o" ?ó) ("`a" ?à) ("`o" ?ò). >> >> You are right. But please note that AFAIK in Cyrillic it's rare to find >> acute accents, so the idea was "accent the next letter" and the ' key is >> much more convenient on modern keyboards. For Cyrillic in particular, >> it may make sense to use ' as the accent prefix or accept it in addition >> to `. If you still think only ` should be used, I'll commit a patch >> immediately. JL> Instead of the grave accent `, most Cyrillic languages (including Bulgarian, JL> Russian, Ukrainian) use the acute accent ' to mark the stressed vowel. JL> Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_accent#Stress for more JL> information. Take a look at the Unicode Cyrillic chart. Only the grave is available for ѝ for example. They all have to be done with combining. We still need the grave-accented ѝ Ѝ letters, too. So both ' and ` (or something similar) will be needed as prefix keys. JL> 2. It uses accented Latin letters à, ò that is inappropriate for JL> Cyrillic texts. The only valid way (as I understand according to JL> Unicode specifications) is to use combining characters. >> >> I think I mentioned this in an earlier post. Combining characters look >> inconsistent and sometimes take up two lines of text in Emacs, so I >> thought it would be acceptable to use the accented Latin letters. If >> not, I'm OK with replacing them with the combining versions. Please >> note I'm not an expert on this topic, so I greatly appreciate your >> recommendations. JL> If combining characters take two lines, then it is a bug. I remember JL> that rendering of combining characters was correct before the Unicode JL> merge. If it was possible to do right before the merge, maybe it will be JL> possible to fix this in current code using the same logic? OK. Furthermore, I can do (insert (compose-chars ?а ?̀)) but if I try the resulting character in quail-define-rules, it's not a valid character read sequence, being two characters. I also can't specify the `compose-chars' function call or a string there. How do I specify a combined character in the quail rules? JL> 3. It turns "'" into a prefix key, but it is used to input "ь" according JL> to the rule ("'" ?ь). >> >> Would it be possible to move ь under the ' prefix? As I mentioned the ' >> key is very convenient and ь is not a frequently-needed letter. It >> actually works fine for me as it is (unless I need to type something >> like ьо, which is rare), but I see the problem. JL> In Bulgarian it is rare, but in Russian and Ukrainian it is very JL> frequently used letter ;-) Understood, but ' is the most sensible prefix for accents as well. Can we have `' generate acute accents and ` generate grave? That's a decent compromise since accented letters are rarely needed. JL> 4. «»“„‘‚§№ is too limited set of necessary characters and this set is JL> not specific to `cyrillic-translit'. Different styles of quotation JL> marks are required by typographic rules in other several languages and JL> scripts besides Cyrillic, and these rules also require using other JL> symbols like dashes of different lengths, nbsp, 1/2, 1/4, subscripts, JL> copyright, currency signs, and many more. JL> Thanks, the characters you added are very needed. Other needed characters JL> to add are at least ”’–—•… See at end for proposed mappings. JL> So instead of copying the same rules to all input method a better JL> way is to create a separate common input method with all these JL> special symbols and to share it with language specific input JL> methods. >> >> My suggestion was essentially to build a prefix tree for Slavic >> languages, since they share enough typographic rules, and to insert it >> into every specific input method. Using a secondary input method works >> better so I hope it can happen (if Kenichi Handa's patch is OK). JL> And in another message you wrote: >> If this can go into the trunk, I'll be glad to use it (my changes will >> then be unnecessary). The only caution is that universal sequences are >> not always intuitive; a good example is that I put "/ab" for paragraph >> because that makes sense in Bulgarian ("абзац" means paragraph, >> pronounced "abzatz"). So it would be nice to have a universal input >> method plus custom rules at the intermediate level (e.g. cyrillic-*). JL> It might be funny but in Russian § is named as a "paragraph sign", JL> so your mnemonics don't work here. And "абзац" is used for a different JL> character, actually the pilcrow. Please compare: JL> http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C2%B6 JL> http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BA_%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%84%D0%B0 According to http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86 "абзац" is a synonym for paragraph in Russian (and comes from German, so I learned something new :). I don't know what's exactly right here, but we can certainly accomodate /pa as a paragraph prefix that produces §. I would prefer to leave /ab as § as well since (AFAIK) the pilcrow is not as common. Do you agree? The goal is convenience for the users, so I hope we don't build a large prefix tree. Just the limited repertoire here is already hard to remember. How about: "' -> ” (compare to "" for “) /` -> ’ (compare to /' for ‘) /- -> – /-- -> — /. -> • ("big fat dot") /.. -> … (nice typographically) /1{2,4,8,16,32,64} -> 1/fraction (the slash moves to the beginning) /c -> copyright /tm -> trademark /rub-> ruble /kop-> kopek /lev-> leva (л AFAIK) /sto-> stotinki /e -> euro /ce -> cents /pa -> § plus existing ,, -> „ "" -> “ /, -> ‚ /' -> ‘ /& -> § /ab -> § /# -> № /no -> № << -> « >> -> » Ted