From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Is Elisp really that slow? Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 23:08:21 +0200 Message-ID: <86woia8eyi.fsf@zoho.eu> References: <20190514235412.kncazq45szlum2gr@Ergus> <83v9yb92c7.fsf@gnu.org> <878sv7sp3r.fsf@telefonica.net> <83r28z8zl9.fsf@gnu.org> <20190515210924.sijzy6mnpgzkt4gm@Ergus> <83ftpecwu1.fsf@gnu.org> <20190516161408.4dov3dwk5h4yoizn@Ergus> <838sv6cmwt.fsf@gnu.org> <20190516202327.5cgy2s4kppy3ahxa@Ergus> <871s0yqg2i.fsf@telefonica.net> <20190516224611.wr32phaq6mxkxylv@Ergus> Reply-To: Emanuel Berg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="111107"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1 (gnu/linux) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue May 28 23:08:44 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hVjKu-000SiH-2v for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 28 May 2019 23:08:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42749 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hVjKt-0006jB-3r for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 28 May 2019 17:08:43 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:60436) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hVjKi-0006j4-AP for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 28 May 2019 17:08:33 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hVjKf-0001BW-Gw for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 28 May 2019 17:08:32 -0400 Original-Received: from [195.159.176.226] (port=56632 helo=blaine.gmane.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hVjKf-00019F-AN for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 28 May 2019 17:08:29 -0400 Original-Received: from list by blaine.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hVjKd-000SQu-Hy for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 28 May 2019 23:08:27 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Cancel-Lock: sha1:VuyMBLMa1WEHY/tXtnWeyqXLVFk= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 195.159.176.226 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:120680 Archived-At: Ergus wrote: > I agree 50% here. One thing is to use > specific emacs functionalities tricks, but > another one is when you don't know how to > start, because the workflow is orthogonal to > 90% of everything else, or you look for the > word copy and paste in the tutorial you only > find kill and yank. Yes, we have some terminology of our own. That's nothing to be ashamed of. Perhaps one can explain it somewhere if this hasn't happened already, like a "Feel confused by Emacs terminology? Here is a crib for YOU" type of document or part of the manual. But obey tradition is all one can do. It is what one wants to do. Try to change it - trust me, it never works, anywhere. > The first impression is actually the most > important. And if a user don't see any > advantage the first 10 minutes, we lost him. You have again so low esteem of the user. Why didn't WE quit after 10 minutes? Are we so much better than everyone else? > This is exactly the key of all my point. > We can't continue patching and putting works > around to this issue and we can't compete and > win in all the fields we cover, so at least > we must be centered in one of them, the most > important one. We want it ALL. That's the whole idea with Emacs. We want programming, but also HTML/CSS, LaTeX and Biblatex, the shell, the file system, Emacs-w3m, man pages (a pager _and_ a mode to edit groff), Gnus, ERC, Makefile, and everything else people are using Emacs for *every day*. Emacs hackers all around the world are working on all of this, and much, much more, every day. You will never, ever be able to get them to focus on "the most important" field, whatever that is. The diversity (plethora of activities) is the _strength_, not the/a problem. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 https://dataswamp.org/~incal