From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Joel Reicher Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2024 20:35:52 +1000 Message-ID: <86v81yiq5z.fsf@gmail.com> References: <7133BE83-064B-43A4-A193-61376605222C@dancol.org> <055E6E92-6971-409E-A106-7E0C64FEF856@dancol.org> <87bk3r22x5.fsf@yahoo.com> <746FE961-37C5-4387-8274-7D90908EE2D6@dancol.org> <8734p3219c.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12623"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Po Lu , Alan Mackenzie , Stefan Kangas , Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Daniel Colascione Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jun 24 12:36:43 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sLh3z-0002zl-KM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2024 12:36:43 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLh3N-0005xn-DR; Mon, 24 Jun 2024 06:36:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLh3K-0005xb-PY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2024 06:36:03 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-x62c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::62c]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLh3I-0003EP-3f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2024 06:36:01 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1f9b52ef481so33456885ad.1 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2024 03:35:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1719225358; x=1719830158; darn=gnu.org; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=czU6qlHvZkTPq/LYleiajnWxOsFdtfQ4uADuD0ogp34=; b=FXMGK/6oczPVB5mpjBkSiXc//m9YAlh3f+Y1jDbibyPb6Wh0vYfYmbRi+xQLtiTIpk 8APLYemhcEXX6F1QYHjzc7OLHGOL2q7gL4P+KJ4BlSHqvH1S7OxKpSYVzSPQ/FSoJ+jQ Aev81v4UmuhREIJqc58mUr5f2LFLDT0eb79AZS4g/8+y6GLO2ju3jtei5gq9TBhrkx+8 lVGMClNaVh2nmFt31IRwaDqULTLmTbEXPX7VCoouwhTBN0asBv0l4zcXJQNJIjNzdVZz ozvRey7pmilT6D24H8CGbAI8LB0zPlUjl8c80zeRrfDT7DxWH66aVMj8GKtuXU6rKQIe WZNQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1719225358; x=1719830158; h=mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to :subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=czU6qlHvZkTPq/LYleiajnWxOsFdtfQ4uADuD0ogp34=; b=PAEt0Tsl7oDReOuv3cqN6ccc+A+GkfpkdPZTUHBCqWAJkIAUp+NIVe9TILHZMvk7Ys HcWW6f1WUu/ESQcSSLQ6hz9lZKZnWBMDBTvC5Twb1iCi+IoCRmMp1E6wOMmpkYhFY4EN 4uXIo+ZG5gFf9ECkAM/0bMtggpJWwoyrHxe0FHwS/z/UI8mGnzCQpB24jghrlAi5PK+r 03mglMASRBhoZIcnoZsf19eXkN2arRbs0vwDRS1T1jugnGupCvo6Wr4PS2Fmyb7gsvuX 5QxGTCcbVp+cH5uYSzLDUN5a3Ka9BcxhnQEqr9UFqXn6rKxZh8dcmoBR6ysGPIVVECRc 7FIg== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXP7lA5hjKZt4rLL28GCuBbXeepR2B6JlUeVJR8ngxtICzF1OgcYWIGqGzwu21/9h4W7rkf+khjpbxriqXzFv4nQ52G X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwNkKybFz7F1X6EMsur2VBbn7+7wi/1CC2tix5jN+pcAgzPzz72 2hnvPsGEvUfNmJfpL5P81d+4OKutb9L312iw4W+w5z0xs2ljV5ir+TrsuZRT X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGnA8jAcfw36DHzdjvW5bESmnechuZE5Ldy3VXFweiYoKmFQ49gk/wltsiu7YcyslM5dBLuHA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:ec8b:b0:1fa:199d:6d59 with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1fa23eeb746mr53086165ad.38.1719225357518; Mon, 24 Jun 2024 03:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from LAPTOP-ACR66VVN (139-218-25-158.sta.wbroadband.net.au. [139.218.25.158]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d9443c01a7336-1f9eb7cf885sm59627775ad.224.2024.06.24.03.35.54 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 24 Jun 2024 03:35:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Daniel Colascione's message of "Sun, 23 Jun 2024 10:28:05 -0400") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::62c; envelope-from=joel.reicher@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x62c.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:320594 Archived-At: Daniel Colascione writes: > On June 23, 2024 10:15:59 AM EDT, Po Lu > wrote: >>Daniel Colascione writes: >> >>> I don't trust that many such users exist, and even if they >>> did, providing default keybindings for these keys will not >>> somehow override the keybindings you install yourself. >> >>Sure. And more users stand to benefit from Windmove commands if >>they are bound to C-x 4, than if they were required to bind such >>commands themselves, commands defined by a package that is >>already of marginal interest? What extraordinary logic! > > Well, yes? It's of marginal interest because it's not > discoverable. It's nevertheless useful. More people would use > the package if it were discoverable. I don't think the logic is > terribly complicated here. What I have found as I've learned Emacs is that while discoverability is important, what I've really needed is "try-ability", as it's often been difficult for me to imagine how a particular function might feel to use, might serve me (or not), and sometimes what it even does until I see it (especially if it involves new concepts). A few times early on I would have liked default keybindings automatically added /after/ electing to try a package and /only if/ those keys weren't already bound to something else. Every now and again I think Emacs would be improved by having this-or-that feature with a lower "barrier to trying", even if I had elected not to stick with it. These days I'm confident in my ability to add my own keybindings in order to try a package, but at the start I wasn't. Thanks and regards, - Joel