From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: guided tour suggestions Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:20:43 +0200 Message-ID: <86tzssy27o.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> References: <87645ai4cl.fsf@phil.mit.edu> <85d4zi6jdo.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <874pksef39.fsf@phil.mit.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1183015257 26468 80.91.229.12 (28 Jun 2007 07:20:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 07:20:57 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Phil Sung Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jun 28 09:20:55 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1I3oJA-0003X1-Gj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:20:52 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I3oJ9-0002Y4-SL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 03:20:51 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1I3oJ5-0002Xz-Q8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 03:20:47 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1I3oJ4-0002X5-4x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 03:20:47 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I3oJ3-0002X2-V6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 03:20:45 -0400 Original-Received: from pc3.berlin.powerweb.de ([62.67.228.11]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1I3oJ3-0007d0-FO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 03:20:45 -0400 Original-Received: from quinscape.de (dslnet.212-29-44.ip210.dokom.de [212.29.44.210] (may be forged)) by pc3.berlin.powerweb.de (8.9.3p3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27191 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:20:44 +0200 X-Delivered-To: Original-Received: (qmail 3986 invoked from network); 28 Jun 2007 07:20:44 -0000 Original-Received: from unknown (HELO lola.quinscape.zz) ([10.0.3.43]) (envelope-sender ) by ns.quinscape.de (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 28 Jun 2007 07:20:44 -0000 Original-Received: by lola.quinscape.zz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 315C48F832; Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:20:44 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <874pksef39.fsf@phil.mit.edu> (Phil Sung's message of "Thu\, 28 Jun 2007 03\:02\:50 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/23.0.51 (gnu/linux) X-detected-kernel: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:73969 Archived-At: Phil Sung writes: > David Kastrup writes: >> Would it be possible to make the screenshots with emacs -Q so that people see >> what they get out of the box ... ? > > Good idea. > >> The guided tour ... shows an Emacs a) compiled without a modern >> toolkit (Gtk+, Windows or Mac) b) without menus c) without toolbars >> d) without scrollbars (for heaven's sake!) e) without font >> diversity. The only thing hinting at fonts is a man-page f) without >> file dialogs g) without tooltips h) without any non-ASCII character > > When I get a chance, I will make some screenshots with the default > UI setup, and with more complex formatting/characters. Very much appreciated. One of the problems with promoting Emacs nowadays are users who tried it 10 years ago and were not getting along with it. Dispelling their (and their audience's) preconceptions is easier with more graphical material. I am aware that one of the most frequent customizations is turning off the toolbar in order to maximize screen estate and minimize clutter. For a live showoff of the skills of an experienced user, this might be somewhat feasible. But as soon as we are getting into (live or off-line) tutorial reign, it becomes a much better idea to show off and use the menus: that way, people have a chance of _following_ what you are doing, and maybe even of doing it by themselves. And they have the cues for trying it by themselves and remembering the moves when they are alone. That the work style of a long-time user is a different one is not that important. Thanks for caring, -- David Kastrup