From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Folding emacsclient into emacs Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:12:45 +0200 Message-ID: <86sl59zluq.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> References: <87ir6gtx7w.fsf_-_@olgas.newt.com> <85bqc7hfau.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <868x79slkb.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> <857imscvzn.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87ps0e71k4.fsf@jurta.org> <85zlziw3w5.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87myvh3bt7.fsf@jurta.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1190283179 12061 80.91.229.12 (20 Sep 2007 10:12:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:12:59 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Glenn Morris , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Juri Linkov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 20 12:12:57 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1IYJ1k-0001TV-9u for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:12:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYJ1i-0007uK-Bh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 06:12:54 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IYJ1f-0007rg-0n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 06:12:51 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IYJ1c-0007lw-4K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 06:12:50 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYJ1b-0007lm-Ok for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 06:12:47 -0400 Original-Received: from pc3.berlin.powerweb.de ([62.67.228.11]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1IYJ1b-0000bp-At for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 06:12:47 -0400 Original-Received: from quinscape.de (dslnet.212-29-44.ip210.dokom.de [212.29.44.210] (may be forged)) by pc3.berlin.powerweb.de (8.9.3p3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02614 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:12:43 +0200 X-Delivered-To: Original-Received: (qmail 6352 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2007 10:12:45 -0000 Original-Received: from unknown (HELO lola.quinscape.zz) ([10.0.3.43]) (envelope-sender ) by ns.quinscape.de (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Sep 2007 10:12:45 -0000 Original-Received: by lola.quinscape.zz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B2D6B8F856; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:12:45 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <87myvh3bt7.fsf@jurta.org> (Juri Linkov's message of "Thu\, 20 Sep 2007 11\:50\:44 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/23.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-Detected-Kernel: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:79364 Archived-At: Juri Linkov writes: >>> Disagree. Just click "Options/Word Wrap in Text Modes" and >>> "Options/Save Options" and you qualify as an expert without startup >>> screen access? No. > > If the user is already familiar with the Emacs menu structure, > the user can easily find the item Help->About Emacs. Why would he be familiar with the menu structure because he used one menu once? >> Also, the `useradd' command installs some default dotfiles from >> /etc/skel. At least on Red Hat, this includes a basic .emacs file. >> >> (_Why_ they do it this way rather than through default.el is a >> different issue...) > > We could compare .emacs with the initial .emacs in /etc/skel, > but I agree this is not worth trying. > > Just another idea: what about creating a file > ~/.emacs.d/startup-counter, which contains a number of Emacs > invocations, and automatically increment it after every Emacs > startup. A bigger number would make the startup screen less > annoying: starting with displaying the startup screen in the > separate window and progressing to displaying it in the echo area > with less and less lines. No. The _default_ configuration should be one that does _not_ mess with getting basic work done. At the same time, Emacs should not change its behavior without being asked. In particular not with regard to a feature which we consider essential for new users. If a sysadmin is asked to do something on a user account and starts Emacs a few times while working on that, it is not acceptable that by the time the user starts Emacs, the help information is no longer available, either because the sysadmin had to reconfigure Emacs in order to get his work done, or because Emacs reconfigured itself. If we find a "startup screen less annoying" that still gets the relevant pointers across if the user chose not to learn the initial obnoxious startup by heart, then there is no good reason not to use this setting right from the start rather than after a number of iterations. -- David Kastrup