bug#335: bug tracking system leads to duplicate replies appearing

bug#335: bug tracking system leads to duplicate replies appearing

[Joe Wells]

I've noticed that most of the replies appearing in the gnu.emacs.bug
newsgroup seems to be duplicated.  This duplication is also occurring
in the bug-gnu-emacs mailing list (although most of the web interfaces
to the mailing list detect and hide the duplicates).

I believe this is due to messages being addressed to both
bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org and XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com where XYZ is
the bug number.  When someone follows up, their message gets sent to
bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org twice, because everything sent to
XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com will also be sent onward to
bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org.

You can see for yourself in the mailing list archives.  As just one
example, in the file at
<URL:ftp://lists.gnu.org/bug-gnu-emacs/2008-05>, you can see two
messages with the message ID
<jwvwslkzpun.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@gnu.org>, which are both
copies of a single message that Stefan Monnier posted in reply to a
bug report I posted earlier.  Interestingly, by the time these two
copies show up in the gnu.emacs.bug USENET newsgroup, they have the
two different message IDs
<mailman.12118.1211578329.18990.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> and
<mailman.12121.1211578334.18990.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>.

By the way, it seems at first glance that none of these are the
original message ID of Stefan's message, but instead these are fresh
message IDs chosen by the bug tracking software and mailing list
software.  At least the two message IDs that begin with “mailman” are
definitely fresh.  These pieces of software should *not* be making up
fresh message IDs.  Changing message IDs prevents duplicate filtering
software from working, and also leads to fractured message threads
where the reading software can not tell what is a reply to what.

I hope this bug report is helpful in tracking down and stopping this
useless and confusing duplication of messages.

-- 
Joe


-- 
Heriot-Watt University is a Scottish charity
registered under charity number SC000278.

bug#335: bug tracking system leads to duplicate replies appearing

[Don Armstrong]

On Thu, 29 May 2008, Joe Wells wrote:
> I believe this is due to messages being addressed to both
> bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org and XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com where XYZ
> is the bug number. When someone follows up, their message gets sent
> to bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org twice, because everything sent to
> XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com will also be sent onward to
> bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org.

This is because people are using reply-to-all, instead of
reply-to-list or reply-to. I can resolve this by discarding duplicate
message ids, but thats more of a sledgehammer. Far better would be for
people to stop being silly and using reply-to-all, and instead use
reply-to-list or reply-to, both of which are set properly and behave
correctly.
 
> Interestingly, by the time these two copies show up in the
> gnu.emacs.bug USENET newsgroup, they have the two different message
> IDs <mailman.12118.1211578329.18990.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> and
> <mailman.12121.1211578334.18990.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>.
>
> By the way, it seems at first glance that none of these are the
> original message ID of Stefan's message, but instead these are fresh
> message IDs chosen by the bug tracking software and mailing list
> software.  At least the two message IDs that begin with “mailman” are
> definitely fresh.  These pieces of software should *not* be making up
> fresh message IDs. 

Debbugs has nothing to do with these message IDs; it adds
Resent-Message-Id: for the messages which it forwards, and retains the
original Message-Id:. Most likely this is something to do with the
mailman list-to-news gateway.


Don Armstrong

-- 
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is
research.
 -- Steven Wright

http://www.donarmstrong.com              http://rzlab.ucr.edu

bug#335: bug tracking system leads to duplicate replies appearing

[Joe Wells]

Don Armstrong <don@donarmstrong.com> writes:

> On Thu, 29 May 2008, Joe Wells wrote:
>> I believe this is due to messages being addressed to both
>> bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org and XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com where XYZ
>> is the bug number. When someone follows up, their message gets sent
>> to bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org twice, because everything sent to
>> XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com will also be sent onward to
>> bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org.
>
> This is because people are using reply-to-all, instead of
> reply-to-list or reply-to. I can resolve this by discarding duplicate
> message ids, but thats more of a sledgehammer. Far better would be for
> people to stop being silly and using reply-to-all, and instead use
> reply-to-list or reply-to, both of which are set properly and behave
> correctly.

Unfortunately, there is no way to know whether all of the recipient
addresses in a message are on the mailing list.  Even if this is so
for one mailing list, it might not be the case for other mailing
lists.  So people can not in general rely on the behavior of any
“reply” function of their mail program to reach the right people.

In this case, a good solution is that the bug tracking software could
make sure to always omit bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org from the list of
recipients whenever XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com is going to be one
of the recipients.  This will work in this case because anything sent
to XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com will also get sent to
bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org.

I notice that you just now have started adding a Mail-Followup-To
header.  This is a good idea.  I notice that don@donarmstrong.com is
not in the Mail-Followup-To header.  I'm curious, how does your
software know to omit this address?  Do you receive a copy of all bug
report traffic regardless?

>> Interestingly, by the time these two copies show up in the
>> gnu.emacs.bug USENET newsgroup, they have the two different message
>> IDs <mailman.12118.1211578329.18990.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> and
>> <mailman.12121.1211578334.18990.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>.
>>
>> By the way, it seems at first glance that none of these are the
>> original message ID of Stefan's message, but instead these are fresh
>> message IDs chosen by the bug tracking software and mailing list
>> software.  At least the two message IDs that begin with “mailman” are
>> definitely fresh.  These pieces of software should *not* be making up
>> fresh message IDs. 
>
> Debbugs has nothing to do with these message IDs; it adds
> Resent-Message-Id: for the messages which it forwards, and retains the
> original Message-Id:. Most likely this is something to do with the
> mailman list-to-news gateway.

Indeed, the “mailman” prefix of the message IDs hints at this.  I
don't know how the mailman software maintainers can justify this.

When I wrote my report, it seemed to me that the message ID
<jwvwslkzpun.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@gnu.org> might have been
generated by your software.  I am happy to hear this is not the case.

-- 
Joe


-- 
Heriot-Watt University is a Scottish charity
registered under charity number SC000278.

bug#335: bug tracking system leads to duplicate replies appearing

[Stefan Monnier]

>> This is because people are using reply-to-all, instead of
>> reply-to-list or reply-to. I can resolve this by discarding duplicate

reply-to-all is my default mode of operation, because it's the one that
minimizes the risk of missing someone.  I'm not going to change this
habit based on whether or not this message is on the bugtracker: my
intention is to send it to all the recipients, so I use reply-to-all.

> When I wrote my report, it seemed to me that the message ID
> <jwvwslkzpun.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@gnu.org> might have been

These mine.


        Stefan

bug#335: marked as done (bug tracking system leads to duplicate replies appearing)

[Emacs bug Tracking System]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 813 bytes --]

Your message dated Fri, 22 Jan 2010 15:36:26 -0500
with message-id <bjvdetvpv9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org>
and subject line Re: Bug#897
has caused the Emacs bug report #897,
regarding bug tracking system leads to duplicate replies appearing
to be marked as done.

This means that you claim that the problem has been dealt with.
If this is not the case it is now your responsibility to reopen the
bug report if necessary, and/or fix the problem forthwith.

(NB: If you are a system administrator and have no idea what this
message is talking about, this may indicate a serious mail system
misconfiguration somewhere. Please contact bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
immediately.)


-- 
897: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=897
Emacs Bug Tracking System
Contact bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org with problems

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 4506 bytes --]

From: Joe Wells <jbw@macs.hw.ac.uk>
To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: bug tracking system leads to duplicate replies appearing
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 23:31:19 +0100
Message-ID: <86r6bkwxmw.fsf@macs.hw.ac.uk>

I've noticed that most of the replies appearing in the gnu.emacs.bug
newsgroup seems to be duplicated.  This duplication is also occurring
in the bug-gnu-emacs mailing list (although most of the web interfaces
to the mailing list detect and hide the duplicates).

I believe this is due to messages being addressed to both
bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org and XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com where XYZ is
the bug number.  When someone follows up, their message gets sent to
bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org twice, because everything sent to
XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com will also be sent onward to
bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org.

You can see for yourself in the mailing list archives.  As just one
example, in the file at
<URL:ftp://lists.gnu.org/bug-gnu-emacs/2008-05>, you can see two
messages with the message ID
<jwvwslkzpun.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@gnu.org>, which are both
copies of a single message that Stefan Monnier posted in reply to a
bug report I posted earlier.  Interestingly, by the time these two
copies show up in the gnu.emacs.bug USENET newsgroup, they have the
two different message IDs
<mailman.12118.1211578329.18990.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> and
<mailman.12121.1211578334.18990.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>.

By the way, it seems at first glance that none of these are the
original message ID of Stefan's message, but instead these are fresh
message IDs chosen by the bug tracking software and mailing list
software.  At least the two message IDs that begin with “mailman” are
definitely fresh.  These pieces of software should *not* be making up
fresh message IDs.  Changing message IDs prevents duplicate filtering
software from working, and also leads to fractured message threads
where the reading software can not tell what is a reply to what.

I hope this bug report is helpful in tracking down and stopping this
useless and confusing duplication of messages.

-- 
Joe


-- 
Heriot-Watt University is a Scottish charity
registered under charity number SC000278.





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From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
To: 897-done@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: Bug#897
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 15:36:26 -0500
Message-ID: <bjvdetvpv9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org>


Recent changes ought to gradually make duplicate emails less common.
(See bug#5384). This is still not perfect, so I'll open a new, shorter
bug with the remaining issues.

bug#392: duplicate messages on bug-gnu-emacs via emacsbugs@donarmstrong

[jidanni]

Many messages appear twice here reading on GMANE.org. E.g., when
somebody does
Cc: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, 378@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com

Can perhaps these two lists not change the Message-ID, so duplicates
can be detected and discarded, or somehow otherwise suppressed. Or
maybe Stefan should just better edit the headers he sends?

bug#392: marked as done (duplicate messages on bug-gnu-emacs via emacsbugs@donarmstrong)

[Emacs bug Tracking System]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 819 bytes --]

Your message dated Fri, 22 Jan 2010 15:36:26 -0500
with message-id <bjvdetvpv9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org>
and subject line Re: Bug#897
has caused the Emacs bug report #897,
regarding duplicate messages on bug-gnu-emacs via emacsbugs@donarmstrong
to be marked as done.

This means that you claim that the problem has been dealt with.
If this is not the case it is now your responsibility to reopen the
bug report if necessary, and/or fix the problem forthwith.

(NB: If you are a system administrator and have no idea what this
message is talking about, this may indicate a serious mail system
misconfiguration somewhere. Please contact bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
immediately.)


-- 
897: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=897
Emacs Bug Tracking System
Contact bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org with problems

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2277 bytes --]

From: jidanni@jidanni.org
To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: duplicate messages on bug-gnu-emacs via emacsbugs@donarmstrong
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:05:52 +0800
Message-ID: <8763sfjwcv.fsf@jidanni.org>

Many messages appear twice here reading on GMANE.org. E.g., when
somebody does
Cc: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, 378@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com

Can perhaps these two lists not change the Message-ID, so duplicates
can be detected and discarded, or somehow otherwise suppressed. Or
maybe Stefan should just better edit the headers he sends?




[-- Attachment #3: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2143 bytes --]

From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
To: 897-done@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: Bug#897
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 15:36:26 -0500
Message-ID: <bjvdetvpv9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org>


Recent changes ought to gradually make duplicate emails less common.
(See bug#5384). This is still not perfect, so I'll open a new, shorter
bug with the remaining issues.

bug#897: Huge numbers of duplicate mails

[Glenn Morris]

Package: emacs,emacsbugs

Almost every mail on the bug-gnu-emacs mailing list is duplicated.

Mailman at least seems to filter them from the html archives, but if
you are subscribed to the list, or look at the gnu.emacs.bug newsgroup
you can see them.

It happens because people keep using followup to reply to all the
addresses in a bug report, ie they send mail to both: 123@emacsbugs
and bug-gnu-emacs (or emacs-pretest-bugs). This was traditionally the
Right Thing to do in these lists, so it will be hard to get people to
change.

Perhaps bug #430 (wish...) will help with this, but here is another
suggestion:

If emacsbugs sees that bug-gnu-emacs or emacs-pretest-bug is already
Cc'd on a reply to bug, it should avoid sending out another copy to
the list. Ie, it treats it as a "quiet" submission only to be entered
in the tracker.

(Presumably there must already be some logic to handle this case,
because it at least avoids creating a new numbered bug report.)

bug#897: marked as done (Huge numbers of duplicate mails)

[Emacs bug Tracking System]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 788 bytes --]

Your message dated Fri, 22 Jan 2010 15:36:26 -0500
with message-id <bjvdetvpv9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org>
and subject line Re: Bug#897
has caused the Emacs bug report #897,
regarding Huge numbers of duplicate mails
to be marked as done.

This means that you claim that the problem has been dealt with.
If this is not the case it is now your responsibility to reopen the
bug report if necessary, and/or fix the problem forthwith.

(NB: If you are a system administrator and have no idea what this
message is talking about, this may indicate a serious mail system
misconfiguration somewhere. Please contact bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
immediately.)


-- 
897: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=897
Emacs Bug Tracking System
Contact bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org with problems

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2993 bytes --]

From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Huge numbers of duplicate mails
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 13:59:08 -0400
Message-ID: <99myimlbir.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org>

Package: emacs,emacsbugs

Almost every mail on the bug-gnu-emacs mailing list is duplicated.

Mailman at least seems to filter them from the html archives, but if
you are subscribed to the list, or look at the gnu.emacs.bug newsgroup
you can see them.

It happens because people keep using followup to reply to all the
addresses in a bug report, ie they send mail to both: 123@emacsbugs
and bug-gnu-emacs (or emacs-pretest-bugs). This was traditionally the
Right Thing to do in these lists, so it will be hard to get people to
change.

Perhaps bug #430 (wish...) will help with this, but here is another
suggestion:

If emacsbugs sees that bug-gnu-emacs or emacs-pretest-bug is already
Cc'd on a reply to bug, it should avoid sending out another copy to
the list. Ie, it treats it as a "quiet" submission only to be entered
in the tracker.

(Presumably there must already be some logic to handle this case,
because it at least avoids creating a new numbered bug report.)




[-- Attachment #3: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2143 bytes --]

From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
To: 897-done@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: Bug#897
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 15:36:26 -0500
Message-ID: <bjvdetvpv9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org>


Recent changes ought to gradually make duplicate emails less common.
(See bug#5384). This is still not perfect, so I'll open a new, shorter
bug with the remaining issues.