From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: arevert-xtra.texi xref gremlin Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:10:29 +0200 Message-ID: <86odm57oq2.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> References: <87hcryfjkh.fsf@zip.com.au> <200704022335.l32NZgOp027657@jane.dms.auburn.edu> <87648efhbs.fsf@zip.com.au> <86ps6m7y36.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> <87ircdvlem.fsf@pacem.orebokech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1175595081 24202 80.91.229.12 (3 Apr 2007 10:11:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:11:21 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Romain Francoise , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 03 12:11:19 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HYfyx-0000Bx-5h for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:11:19 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HYg25-00058m-4h for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 06:14:33 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HYg1N-0004cr-B7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 06:13:49 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HYg1L-0004bs-Lb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 06:13:48 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HYg1L-0004bg-AE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 06:13:47 -0400 Original-Received: from pc3.berlin.powerweb.de ([62.67.228.11]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1HYfyC-00037B-Eu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 06:10:32 -0400 Original-Received: from quinscape.de (pd95b0fdb.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.91.15.219]) by pc3.berlin.powerweb.de (8.9.3p3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10792 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:10:27 +0200 X-Delivered-To: Original-Received: (qmail 18464 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2007 10:10:29 -0000 Original-Received: from unknown (HELO lola.quinscape.zz) ([10.0.3.43]) (envelope-sender ) by ns.quinscape.de (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 3 Apr 2007 10:10:29 -0000 Original-Received: by lola.quinscape.zz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C8EC5C3A49; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:10:29 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue\, 03 Apr 2007 12\:55\:51 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-kernel: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:68984 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Romain Francoise >> Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:48:17 +0200 >> >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> > They already did: at least one Debian user told me in some forum >> > (I think gnu.emacs.help) that "C-h F" and "C-h K" didn't work >> > because the manuals were not there. >> >> C-h F and C-h K are new in Emacs 22 > > Yes. The person who told me that used the v21.x equivalents "C-h C-f" > and "C-h C-k". This doesn't change the essence of the problem, which > is that Emacs 21 was shipped without documentation. I think it was just because they fscked up when sorting things into directories. IIRC, the files were there, just not found. >> and the Emacs 22 package in Debian (emacs-snapshot) ships all the >> manuals (for the time being). > > If they did that once, and on purpose, they can do it again. The maintainer of emacs-snapshot has already stated that he will no longer update this package since he is not willing to rip out the documentation and thus does not feel he can follow Debian policies here. Apart from the licensing issue, Emacs is one of the most thoroughly ruined packages by Debian. No Emacs and XEmacs developers understand what Debian does, neither does Emacs/XEmacs itself (list-load-path-shadows comes up with hundreds of entries), few people see capable of creating an Elisp package for the system. The purported advantage is that one needs only one Elisp package for all flavors of Emacs (emacs21, emacs22, XEmacs) and can install things in parallel. There is also a half-baked solution for keeping the documentation in parallel, and it leads to many manual links not working. In short: Emacs/XEmacs under Debian are mostly broken, including the documentation. Removing the documentation does not make them much more broken. -- David Kastrup