From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stephen Leake Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: bug policy (was Re: Release process) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:06:20 -0600 Message-ID: <86oaf0b0gj.fsf_-_@stephe-leake.org> References: <8337wdn6uu.fsf@gnu.org> <86611975jo.fsf_-_@stephe-leake.org> <838u65kxly.fsf@gnu.org> <86mvuk4xxd.fsf@stephe-leake.org> <831tbwlext.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1447283243 7776 80.91.229.3 (11 Nov 2015 23:07:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 23:07:23 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, john@yates-sheets.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 12 00:07:13 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZweTu-0000VQ-C8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 00:07:10 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43556 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZweTt-0006QI-QD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:07:09 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38815) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZweTa-0005zh-Gv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:06:51 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZweTL-0006ww-Ig for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:06:50 -0500 Original-Received: from gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com ([67.222.33.93]:40875) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZweTL-0006w5-CO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 18:06:35 -0500 Original-Received: (qmail 17009 invoked by uid 0); 11 Nov 2015 23:06:30 -0000 Original-Received: from unknown (HELO cmgw4) (10.0.90.85) by gproxy8.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2015 23:06:30 -0000 Original-Received: from host114.hostmonster.com ([74.220.207.114]) by cmgw4 with id gP6P1r00A2UdiVW01P6SVj; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:06:30 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=IekUBwaa c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=CQdxDb2CKd3SRg4I0/XZPQ==:117 a=CQdxDb2CKd3SRg4I0/XZPQ==:17 a=DsvgjBjRAAAA:8 a=f5113yIGAAAA:8 a=9i_RQKNPAAAA:8 a=hEr_IkYJT6EA:10 a=x_XPkuGwIRMA:10 a=qtqOOiqGOCEA:10 a=mDV3o1hIAAAA:8 a=28n0Gr26zmKA2oM9Wz0A:9 Original-Received: from [76.218.37.33] (port=50040 helo=TAKVER2) by host114.hostmonster.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1ZweT8-0006vr-Un; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:06:23 -0700 In-Reply-To: <831tbwlext.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:43:26 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (windows-nt) X-Identified-User: {2442:host114.hostmonster.com:stephele:stephe-leake.org} {sentby:smtp auth 76.218.37.33 authed with stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org} X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 67.222.33.93 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:194167 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> > These considerations will become valid only when we have enough >> > developers paying attention to bugs that are reported. (That includes >> > you, Stephen, btw.) > > (Upon re-reading, I apologize for being so blunt. It just feels too > lonely there, at times.) I didn't see it as offensive; just a gentle reminder. I relate the lonely; I'm inordinately pleased when someone actually posts to the ada-mode mailing list, even if it's just to report a bug :). >> During the last feature freeze, there were reminders on this list of the >> bugs that were deemed release-critical. > > That's the last resort. There are gobs of bugs that don't block > anything, and some of them are left alone for far too long. For your definition of "too long". As far as the Emacs project is concerned, only release-critical bugs have been left "too long". I don't see how it can be any other way, in a volunteer-staffed free software project; no one is paid to fix bugs. Another motivation for working on Emacs in general is the desire to work on a project that has a useful product. But the connection between fixing bugs and producing a useful Emacs is very tenuous in general; it is very direct for some bugs (the ones that occur in common or important use cases), but not for others (obsure bugs that are hard to reproduce). Clearly lots of people find Emacs useful despite the outstanding bugs. The bugs in common or important use cases tend to get fixed, because the package authors are still around to care about them. But we might learn something from triaging the existing bugs; I'll put that on my list of things to think about while I'm procrastinating everything else on the list :). > Even a prompt response that just says the bug was reproduced (or not), > and ideally also with results of some initial investigation and/or > request from the OP to provide more details or try something -- even > this would be progress. That is the level of support I provide for ada-mode. But that started in the context of getting paid to use Ada, so it was easy to interpret that as getting paid to maintain ada-mode. Now that I'm retired, I find myself much less motivated to maintain ada-mode. The lack of such support for Emacs in general is one reason I learned to be proficient in elisp, so I could fix any bugs that I encountered in my Emacs use. That's not an option for every user, but it is what I recommend to any team that wants to use Emacs; make sure there is reasonable access to an Emacs guru for this kind of support. > And then there are small patches submitted there -- review and comment > will be appreciated. Patches that are no-brainers, e.g., fixing a > typo or some other obvious mistake, should be pushed if there are no > comments after a week, say. I understand the process; the issue is the motivation. Clearly, it is far more fun to work on the next Cool Feature, than to chase bugs in yesterday's Boring Feature :). >> There may be other release-critical bugs that I can usefully work on. > > The problem IMO is not the release-critical bugs, it's all the rest. Exactly why are those a problem? Clearly each bug was some sort of problem to at least one user at one time, but why is it an important problem for the Emacs project in general? Do potential users get turned off by the number of bugs? We don't lose funding by ignoring bugs; what do we lose? -- -- Stephe