From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Is Elisp really that slow? Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 23:54:41 +0200 Message-ID: <86muj68cta.fsf@zoho.eu> References: <20190514235412.kncazq45szlum2gr@Ergus> <83v9yb92c7.fsf@gnu.org> <878sv7sp3r.fsf@telefonica.net> <83r28z8zl9.fsf@gnu.org> <20190515210924.sijzy6mnpgzkt4gm@Ergus> <83ftpecwu1.fsf@gnu.org> <20190516161408.4dov3dwk5h4yoizn@Ergus> <838sv6cmwt.fsf@gnu.org> <20190516202327.5cgy2s4kppy3ahxa@Ergus> <871s0yqg2i.fsf@telefonica.net> <3210C8E9-7A74-47D6-81A0-470948E6D09C@gmail.com> Reply-To: Emanuel Berg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="48399"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1 (gnu/linux) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue May 28 23:55:07 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hVk3m-000CSA-Hs for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 28 May 2019 23:55:06 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43179 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hVk3l-0006gx-G5 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 28 May 2019 17:55:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42068) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hVk3W-0006gs-Lt for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 28 May 2019 17:54:51 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hVk3V-0002Aa-Dw for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 28 May 2019 17:54:50 -0400 Original-Received: from [195.159.176.226] (port=50158 helo=blaine.gmane.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hVk3V-00029n-7A for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 28 May 2019 17:54:49 -0400 Original-Received: from list by blaine.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hVk3T-000C1E-7N for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 28 May 2019 23:54:47 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Cancel-Lock: sha1:I4OZd9RUvjzDZnNIGIs9NeFMDBc= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 195.159.176.226 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:120682 Archived-At: Jean-Christophe Helary wrote: >> Emacs provides some advantages, but they are >> not apparent until you experience them. >> That's a problem for people grown on >> a culture of instant gratification. >> Emacs appeals to certain type of users who >> understand that gains require efforts. > > I find that comment extremely condescending. Well, maybe not "extremely", but as I said many times by now, little faith seems to be put in people coming to Emacs for the first time. Actually so little, one might start to suspect we ourselves are very unhappy with our current state! Hint: Just change the initial config so it looks good (cool)! ~Half the problem with newcomers is solved right there. > If "instant gratification" means finding > a common ground on which one can get started > right away, then I'm all for it. It doesn't mean that. > Considering the state of affairs, emacs seems > first to appeal to people who want to give > priority to free software, at the *cost* of > ease of use. *laughter* I can assure you I could barely spell to free software when I started to use Emacs and the political aspects were totally irrelevant. There was no "cost". It was just a cool program and I wanted to do more and more with it. And that's exactly what happened. Why this can't happen to a newcomers, some guy or girl around the world starting Emacs for the first time _today_, why this cannot happen to him or her as well I don't understand. Please enlighten me! Why can't it happen? What's the difference? > Access to free software should never be the > sole privilege of "users who understand that > gains require efforts". Quite the opposite. ... :) ? > Eli earlier clearly identified a number of > areas where emacs required huge and totally > undue efforts to get the thing to work as > expected in the 21st century. Oh, no! More efforts! And huge at that! And what will happen after those efforts? Will we then win? Editor Champions of the World? Stop it. Or continue, rather. The journey _is_ the goal! -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 https://dataswamp.org/~incal