From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: master 37889523278: Add new `swap` macro and use it Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 14:41:09 +0200 Message-ID: <86le872dui.fsf@gnu.org> References: <170452579053.27998.16123231327386305897@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org> <20240106072311.28B8FC0034E@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org> <87plye9ahs.fsf@yahoo.com> <83o7dyua0d.fsf@gnu.org> <87le9297ei.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cyue92fx.fsf@yahoo.com> <877ckm8uzz.fsf@yahoo.com> <83v886sgtl.fsf@gnu.org> <4719da9bc2bbcffdb634@heytings.org> <87bk9o1ooo.fsf@yahoo.com> <83cyu4fl4o.fsf@gnu.org> <877ckc1gs9.fsf@yahoo.com> <83a5p8fehd.fsf@gnu.org> <83bk9mepkt.fsf@gnu.org> <9245debeed69c26665f0@heytings.org> <87h6jbwfu4.fsf@yahoo.com> <2f5a5ec4d5c204a5200d@heytings.org> <87il3flbxj.fsf@yahoo.com> <37364cd16c3e66d03224@heytings.org> <86wmru55aj.fsf@gnu.org> <148534ba18b089da52a9@heytings.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7856"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, stefankangas@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Jan 30 13:42:28 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rUnRc-0001pC-6m for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 13:42:28 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rUnQo-0007Qo-E0; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 07:41:38 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rUnQm-0007Pb-P5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 07:41:36 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rUnQm-0003Y3-4r; Tue, 30 Jan 2024 07:41:36 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=jFkToOaQgf77oDzLUEJlEYiK+j7ylCznZDnoDmhSMy4=; b=nfCB1yAPrzN5 r5hNYegUVz1WCfumeOP5LNZyeodvrPrYuUl5CRtr0Sbmmym+85nooAuARFDMbwAtsvslMPvzIhwvu oXoi/9mR2p7Mmwgs98F7/gr88uf2kdq24OpE1Hpct4HzXKEuZjt8WcSQNaMjmFhRKVe4LF8w9JyJ4 VDr4wjf6rJulvmS1ogltyf01glWjO0ElOr/++Xv8It9MW0LWH1NUOSX+tJ8WkarlgA3fPrifjAcfB bXjGIv3PXuQ6WztaLUKTeuX1Rdm2XS28ZszfQp7Rnsx6y1Xown/ImkR+NKVqKfEIl6rbfBIld6Qyd OrkGv+gJF2xDd6ZCPosuhQ==; In-Reply-To: <148534ba18b089da52a9@heytings.org> (message from Gregory Heytings on Tue, 30 Jan 2024 01:59:26 +0000) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:315634 Archived-At: > Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 01:59:26 +0000 > From: Gregory Heytings > cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, stefankangas@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > >> Of course, why would you do so, with a guiding principle that everyone > >> is wrong? > > > > This is again a kind of remark that I respectfully request you to avoid. > > It adds nothing to your arguments, it just makes it harder for your > > opponents to stay technical in their responses. > > The problem is the word "stay". The objections raised in this thread > have, from the onset, never been technical, although they may have looked > like technical ones. What your opponents do is another matter. We can (and do) ask everyone to stay technical, but we can only control what we do ourselves. However, if you abandon staying technical, you lose the privilege of demanding that others stay technical. > The first technical question you asked was "Did > Stefan's change break some build? If so, which build became broken and > why?", to which you got the following reply: You don't need to remind me this discussion: I have, and still am, a part of it. > That very much looks like a technical objection. But it's in fact a > fabricated one. If you think that, post the facts that show those objections are invalid, but do it in technical terms. People who read what you write can make up their own minds regarding the level of "fabrication"; leave it to them, and you will have avoided the need to reprimand you for the hostile style. > The other technical objections were of the same level, and were debunked > one after the other. Debunking them on technical terms is all that's needed. Please leave the judgment to others, and keep yours to yourself. Expressing that judgment explicitly never helps. > You, Stefan and me wasted several hours doing that in this absurdly > long thread. Please leave the worry about our wasted time to us. We are grown-ups, and can take care of this just fine, thank you. Unless you haven't noticed, I made my conclusions from this argument long ago, and I'm sure Stefan did as well. From my POV a 'swap' macro is a go, provided that it uses 'typeof' where itr is supported, and falls back to __typeof__ otherwise. > Under such circumstances, a technical and constructive discussion is > simply impossible. Then my next recommendation is to stop arguing once you lost all hope to stay technical. > What remains now is something that looks like a threat: "if __typeof__ is > to be used unconditionally, I will simply leave". Again, please leave these aspects to Stefan and myself: that's part of our job here. > With all due respect, IMO, it's that attitude that should be reprimanded, > not the possibly imperfect words I used to speak out against it. I do, and will continue to do, both.