Re: Best android app

Re: Best android app

[ypuntot]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 637 bytes --]

Could these be added there?

https://github.com/DanielDe/org-web
https://easyorgmode.com/
https://github.com/amake/orgro
https://logseq.com/



> Re: Best android app
> From: Ihor Radchenko
> Subject: Re: Best android app
> Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 09:16:13 +0800
> Renato Pontefice <renato.pontefice@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> Sorry…I just realize that I’ve not tell for what I’m looking for the best
>> application…. :-(
>>
>> It’s for open .org file!
>> I would see my org-mode file I’ve created on my emacs on my Mac and check
>> every things…
> 
> https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#org0a6fc30


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2068 bytes --]

Re: Best android app

[Juan Manuel Macías]

ypuntot writes:

> https://easyorgmode.com/ 

Proprietary license. This should not be recommended here
(https://easyorgmode.com/terms).

Re: Best android app

[Ypo]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 316 bytes --]

And I am reading that it is not for Android; just Linux, Windows and Mac.

Definitively, shouldn't go there.

El 16/10/2022 a las 1:01, Juan Manuel Macías escribió:
> ypuntot writes:
>
>> https://easyorgmode.com/  
> Proprietary license. This should not be recommended here
> (https://easyorgmode.com/terms).
>
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1087 bytes --]

Re: Best android app

[Max Nikulin]

On 16/10/2022 06:01, Juan Manuel Macías wrote:
> ypuntot writes:
> 
>> https://easyorgmode.com/
> 
> Proprietary license. This should not be recommended here
> (https://easyorgmode.com/terms).

I did not expected that this topic would become so hot.

Let's ignore that easyorg does not run on Android and concentrate on 
proprietary vs. free app.

I believe that in such cases a helpful answer gently pushing users to 
free software should be like: "Application P is a proprietary one. There 
are F and G apps that have close set of features and superior for tasks 
like T and D." Though such reply is almost impossible if discussion of P 
is aggressively discouraged and sharing discussion summary on a web site 
is prohibited because a web page may be associated with a GNU project. 
Without mention of P the phrase becomes significantly less convincing, 
it may give impression that people suggesting F and G are completely 
unaware of what P really is.

I do not think that intention was to promote the particular app using a 
GNU mail list, so my perception is that reaction without offering a free 
alternative was harsh. It would be acceptable in the case more delay to 
see that nobody can post a better answer.

I am unsure what is more strange, purism close in its degree to 
absurdity or partial measures like wiping mentions of proprietary 
software without removing of complete section
info "(org) Org Mobile" https://orgmode.org/manual/Org-Mobile.html
so that only a half of solution is really described. I would expect more 
healthy balance.

P.S. Juan Manuel, from my point of view, your message suggesting running 
emacs in termux is one of 2 helpful suggestions in this thread. Perhaps 
the topic starter is seeking for a UI suitable for touch screen rather 
than complete set of features, but due to lack of details we do not know it.

I have not tried any Org related application on Android, so I can not 
suggest anything. I had a hope to learn something new from this topic.

Re: Best android app

[Juan Manuel Macías]

Max Nikulin writes:

> On 16/10/2022 06:01, Juan Manuel Macías wrote:
>> ypuntot writes:
>> 
>>> https://easyorgmode.com/
>> Proprietary license. This should not be recommended here
>> (https://easyorgmode.com/terms).
>
> I did not expected that this topic would become so hot.

I didn't expect that either. And, since this response of mine has,
directly or indirectly, sparked a lengthy subsequent discussion, I think
I must apologize if my tone here may have sounded rude or impolite,
which was not my intention. It was a late hour, I was tired and English
is not my first language. So I opted for a minimal expression to remind
a user that the application he mentioned (in good faith) was proprietary
software. Probably, as I wrote it, the text gives the impression that I
was reprimanding this user. As I say, it was not my intention and
therefore I apologize for not having expressed it correctly.

Re: Best android app

[Max Nikulin]

On 16/10/2022 01:31, ypuntot wrote:
> Could these be added there?
> 
> https://github.com/DanielDe/org-web
> https://easyorgmode.com/
> https://github.com/amake/orgro
> https://logseq.com/

At least some brief description of real advantages from actual users is 
necessary. Copy-paste from the project site sometimes is not the best 
option.

Awesome lists is an interesting initiative trying to emphasize strong 
sides of various projects, but particular lists varies in quality. 
Example: https://github.com/emacs-tw/awesome-emacs#readme

I do not have strong opinion concerning proprietary application. 
Requirements for worg section as driven by user content are not so 
strict as for the main part of the Org site that must adhere to FSF 
rules. Perhaps it is possible to separate non-free software by some 
discouraging disclaimer.

Re: Best android app

[Jean Louis]

* Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> [2022-10-16 08:28]:
> On 16/10/2022 01:31, ypuntot wrote:
> > Could these be added there?
> > 
> > https://github.com/DanielDe/org-web
> > https://easyorgmode.com/
> > https://github.com/amake/orgro
> > https://logseq.com/
> 
> At least some brief description of real advantages from actual users is
> necessary. Copy-paste from the project site sometimes is not the best
> option.
> 
> Awesome lists is an interesting initiative trying to emphasize strong sides
> of various projects, but particular lists varies in quality. Example:
> https://github.com/emacs-tw/awesome-emacs#readme
> 
> I do not have strong opinion concerning proprietary application.
> Requirements for worg section as driven by user content are not so strict as
> for the main part of the Org site that must adhere to FSF rules. Perhaps it
> is possible to separate non-free software by some discouraging
> disclaimer.

If I am not mistaken, you propose or initiate discussing how to list
proprietary software on some websites.

GNU mailing lists are not for such discussions. GNU is project is
there to foster full free software. 

Free software is not an ethical issue, its a user right issue:
https://neritam.wordpress.com/2019/10/12/free-software-is-not-an-ethical-issue-its-a-user-right-issue/

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Best android app

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> If I am not mistaken, you propose or initiate discussing how to list
> proprietary software on some websites.
>
> GNU mailing lists are not for such discussions. GNU is project is
> there to foster full free software. 

Do you know where this rule is documented?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: Best android app

[Juan Manuel Macías]

Ihor Radchenko writes:

> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>
>> If I am not mistaken, you propose or initiate discussing how to list
>> proprietary software on some websites.
>>
>> GNU mailing lists are not for such discussions. GNU is project is
>> there to foster full free software. 
>
> Do you know where this rule is documented?

Documented or undocumented, it's common sense. This is a mailing list of
the GNU project, and it is hoped that this list will not recommend the
use of unethical software that does not comply with the GNU philosophy.

Re: Best android app

[Ihor Radchenko]

Juan Manuel Macías <maciaschain@posteo.net> writes:

> Ihor Radchenko writes:
>
>> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>>
>>> If I am not mistaken, you propose or initiate discussing how to list
>>> proprietary software on some websites.
>>>
>>> GNU mailing lists are not for such discussions. GNU is project is
>>> there to foster full free software. 
>>
>> Do you know where this rule is documented?
>
> Documented or undocumented, it's common sense. This is a mailing list of
> the GNU project, and it is hoped that this list will not recommend the
> use of unethical software that does not comply with the GNU philosophy.

Discussing and recommending are two different things.

Consider Windows. We do not recommend it. Yet, we do support it, and we
do discuss it.

WRT the Org apps, we are discussing things, and you are
trying to put stop on this discussion. I find it a bit too aggressive.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: Best android app

[Juan Manuel Macías]

Ihor Radchenko writes:

> WRT the Org apps, we are discussing things, and you are
> trying to put stop on this discussion. I find it a bit too aggressive.

What I have done is simply to remind that a specific application is not
free and should not be recommended here (the user who has cited that
application in good faith does not have to know it). That's exactly
discussing things.

Of course, I know the difference between discussing something and
recommending it.

And no, I do not intend what I have said to put stop a discussion. You
have added that by making a rather poor and out of place judgment of
intentions.

Re: Best android app

[Ihor Radchenko]

Juan Manuel Macías <maciaschain@posteo.net> writes:

> Ihor Radchenko writes:
>
>> WRT the Org apps, we are discussing things, and you are
>> trying to put stop on this discussion. I find it a bit too aggressive.
>
> What I have done is simply to remind that a specific application is not
> free and should not be recommended here (the user who has cited that
> application in good faith does not have to know it). That's exactly
> discussing things.
>
> Of course, I know the difference between discussing something and
> recommending it.

> And no, I do not intend what I have said to put stop a discussion. You
> have added that by making a rather poor and out of place judgment of
> intentions.

Clarification: I was actually referring to Jean's email. (I did not look
at the sender and just now realized that you are not Jean)

Having said that, my judgment may be still poor. I'd be happy to hear
that I am wrong from Jean.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: Best android app

[Juan Manuel Macías]

Ihor Radchenko writes:

> Clarification: I was actually referring to Jean's email. (I did not look
> at the sender and just now realized that you are not Jean)
>
> Having said that, my judgment may be still poor. I'd be happy to hear
> that I am wrong from Jean.

Apologies for the misunderstanding. But in any case, I agree with what
Jean says. A GNU list is not the place to discuss whether proprietary
software should be recommended here or anywhere else. And I don't think
that affirming this (which is obvious) means aborting any possible
discussion. It is simply a reminder that such discussions should not
take place here. I don't think this is documented anywhere, but I insist
that it seems like common sense to me.

Re: Best android app

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> [2022-10-16 18:02]:
> Clarification: I was actually referring to Jean's email. (I did not look
> at the sender and just now realized that you are not Jean)
> 
> Having said that, my judgment may be still poor. I'd be happy to hear
> that I am wrong from Jean.

Sorry I am lost, I have no idea to what the above refers. 👀

--
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Best android app

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

>> Having said that, my judgment may be still poor. I'd be happy to hear
>> that I am wrong from Jean.
>
> Sorry I am lost, I have no idea to what the above refers. 👀

I was referring to my previous statement that
"WRT the Org apps, we are discussing things, and you are trying to put
stop on this discussion. I find it a bit too aggressive."

You have already replied to it.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: Best android app

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> [2022-10-17 15:52]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> >> Having said that, my judgment may be still poor. I'd be happy to hear
> >> that I am wrong from Jean.
> >
> > Sorry I am lost, I have no idea to what the above refers. 👀
> 
> I was referring to my previous statement that
> "WRT the Org apps, we are discussing things, and you are trying to put
> stop on this discussion. I find it a bit too aggressive."

Alright, though I cannot imagine me having characteristic of an enemy
or being eager to fight. Sorry, I can't understand sensitivity for
nothing.


--
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Best android app

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> [2022-10-16 16:04]:
> > Documented or undocumented, it's common sense. This is a mailing list of
> > the GNU project, and it is hoped that this list will not recommend the
> > use of unethical software that does not comply with the GNU philosophy.
> 
> Discussing and recommending are two different things.
> 
> Consider Windows. We do not recommend it. Yet, we do support it, and we
> do discuss it.

This is because Emacs run on Windows, like many other free
software. That does not make Windows legitimate for use.

> WRT the Org apps, we are discussing things, and you are
> trying to put stop on this discussion. I find it a bit too
> aggressive.

Don't feel bad for that. That was nothing personal. Nobody minds who
uses privately non-free software. Though why discuss or list
proprietary software on GNU mailing lists which is meant for creation
of fully free operating systems?!

--
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Best android app

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

>> WRT the Org apps, we are discussing things, and you are
>> trying to put stop on this discussion. I find it a bit too
>> aggressive.
>
> Don't feel bad for that. That was nothing personal. Nobody minds who
> uses privately non-free software. Though why discuss or list
> proprietary software on GNU mailing lists which is meant for creation
> of fully free operating systems?!

Mostly in order to identify what we can improve in Org to remove the
temptation to use that proprietary software. Fear to _not_ hear about why
the proprietary software was even listed was the main motivator of my
reply to your message.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: Best android app

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> [2022-10-17 14:56]:
> Mostly in order to identify what we can improve in Org to remove the
> temptation to use that proprietary software. Fear to _not_ hear about why
> the proprietary software was even listed was the main motivator of my
> reply to your message.

Your above English is too hard for me.

But I picked up "listed" and "proprietary".

IMHO there is no reason to list proprietary software on GNU mailing
lists for purpose of comparison; unless there is serious intention to
make new free software that provides similar features.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Best android app

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> [2022-10-16 12:25]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > If I am not mistaken, you propose or initiate discussing how to list
> > proprietary software on some websites.
> >
> > GNU mailing lists are not for such discussions. GNU is project is
> > there to foster full free software. 
> 
> Do you know where this rule is documented?

It is everywhere in GNU project, Org mode is part of Emacs and GNU
project.

In GNU project nobody is concerned if you, me or who uses free
software privately, that is not matter of GNU project as it is private
matter.

We create fully free operating systems. We do not intrude in privacy
of people.

Yes, it is common sense that in GNU project we do not steer users
towards proprietary systems.

This means that in GNU software, mailing lists and chat, and websites,
we do not point to proprietary systems as non-free programs are
injustice, and we shall not bring users to position to give up their
freedom.

Applying the Free Software Criteria - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/applying-free-sw-criteria.en.html

People are free to discuss anything, but as it is GNU project, those
who are aware may ask and wonder why is proprietary software endorsed
or referenced on GNU mailing lists.

--
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Best android app

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> Yes, it is common sense that in GNU project we do not steer users
> towards proprietary systems.
>
> This means that in GNU software, mailing lists and chat, and websites,
> we do not point to proprietary systems as non-free programs are
> injustice, and we shall not bring users to position to give up their
> freedom.
>
> Applying the Free Software Criteria - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation:
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/applying-free-sw-criteria.en.html
>
> People are free to discuss anything, but as it is GNU project, those
> who are aware may ask and wonder why is proprietary software endorsed
> or referenced on GNU mailing lists.

I am mostly using https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html as a
reference here:

>> You should not refer to AT&T’s web site if that recommends AT&T’s
>> non-free software packages; you should not refer to a page p that
>> links to AT&T’s site presenting it as a place to get some non-free
>> program, because that part of the page p itself recommends and
>> legitimizes the non-free program.
>> 
>> However, if p contains a link to AT&T’s web site for some other
>> purpose (such as long-distance telephone service), that is no reason
>> you should not link to p.

So, we may link to non-free software, but only for the purposes other
than encouraging to use it. This is a tricky distinction to master
though. In your interpretation that we are going to promote using that
non-free software, you are right. But I viewed the discussion
differently. [The reality is probably that it was too early to conclude
about where the discussion will go; and it deviated towards FSF
philosophy :) ]

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: Best android app

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> [2022-10-17 15:06]:
> So, we may link to non-free software, but only for the purposes other
> than encouraging to use it. This is a tricky distinction to master
> though. In your interpretation that we are going to promote using that
> non-free software, you are right. But I viewed the discussion
> differently. [The reality is probably that it was too early to conclude
> about where the discussion will go; and it deviated towards FSF
> philosophy :) ]

IMHO, all GNU mailing lists are there under the free software
philosophy subject.

I fully understand the feeling when some people like me start
nagging. That is because me I have not get expectations that there is
proprietary software referenced for Org.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Best android app

[Max Nikulin]

On 16/10/2022 14:32, Jean Louis wrote:
> * Max Nikulin [2022-10-16 08:28]:
>> I do not have strong opinion concerning proprietary application.
>> Requirements for worg section as driven by user content are not so strict as
>> for the main part of the Org site that must adhere to FSF rules. Perhaps it
>> is possible to separate non-free software by some discouraging
>> disclaimer.
> 
> If I am not mistaken, you propose or initiate discussing how to list
> proprietary software on some websites.

You are mistaken. I do not care if such discussion will happen. However 
I do not mind to have a peer reviewed list somewhere. It may be helpful 
to figure out what features and what workflows have not covered by free 
software yet.

For me it is different to not endorse non-free software and to pretend 
that such applications do not exist at all.

> GNU mailing lists are not for such discussions. GNU is project is
> there to foster full free software.

Besides it is a GNU mailing list, I believed, it is dedicated to Org. To 
my surprise in this thread some lightening detector was suggested. The 
original question in this topic was about a *best* app, but a response 
was to search *existing* applications with no comments concerning 
particular ones:

> Try these Org applications for Android:
> 
> https://search.f-droid.org/?q=org+mode&lang=en

There were no details concerning usage patters in the original question, 
so it is hard give suitable suggestion without requesting more 
information, but such response due to lack of additional comments is 
quite close to "search yourself". So from my point of view, there are 
enough posts hardly relevant to the asked question.

To be clear, I think that the value of the FAQ entry is more than just 
links to other projects. I see nothing wrong that the proposal to extend 
the entry by ypuntot contained just links. My point is that when being 
added to FAQ, the links should be augmented by comments based on usage 
experience. Just extensive list of ever existed projects is hardly helpful.

P.S. Searching archives of this mailing list for particular applications 
indirectly mentioned in this thread may provide some user opinions.

Re: Best android app

[Jean Louis]

* Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> [2022-10-16 19:10]:
> On 16/10/2022 14:32, Jean Louis wrote:
> > * Max Nikulin [2022-10-16 08:28]:
> > > I do not have strong opinion concerning proprietary application.
> > > Requirements for worg section as driven by user content are not so strict as
> > > for the main part of the Org site that must adhere to FSF rules. Perhaps it
> > > is possible to separate non-free software by some discouraging
> > > disclaimer.
> > 
> > If I am not mistaken, you propose or initiate discussing how to list
> > proprietary software on some websites.
> 
> You are mistaken. I do not care if such discussion will happen. However I do
> not mind to have a peer reviewed list somewhere. It may be helpful to figure
> out what features and what workflows have not covered by free
> software yet.

Of course it is helpful to write free software that implements some
useful features found elsewhere.

Though for that, we can't steer users to review non-free software as
that means to let them give up on their freedom.

Many features may be discussed without running non-free sofware. And
in same cases one has to run non-free software to write free software.

I find it unfortunate that some people create proprietary software
that uses Org files.

However, IMHO and according to principles of free software, such as
not to steer users towards non-free software, then no links to
proprietary software shall be added from Org website pages, as Org is
part of Emacs which is part of GNU fully free operating system
distributions.

See: https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Best android app

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> However, IMHO and according to principles of free software, such as
> not to steer users towards non-free software, then no links to
> proprietary software shall be added from Org website pages, as Org is
> part of Emacs which is part of GNU fully free operating system
> distributions.

WORG is not the Org website. WORG is the community website.
We deliberately use less strict rules to encourage contributions to
WORG.

The Org website is only https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/orgweb which is strictly
abiding the FSF rules.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: Best android app

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> [2022-10-17 16:18]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > However, IMHO and according to principles of free software, such as
> > not to steer users towards non-free software, then no links to
> > proprietary software shall be added from Org website pages, as Org is
> > part of Emacs which is part of GNU fully free operating system
> > distributions.
> 
> WORG is not the Org website. WORG is the community website.
> We deliberately use less strict rules to encourage contributions to
> WORG.

I am sorry, but in the subject above mentioned by me, what exactly do
you find so strict? Is it the fact not to reference to free sofware?

From my side, I do not mind how some people categorize their website,
IMHO orgmode.org is one website for me, you may have many categories
and many pages, and categories and pages may be managed by X number of
people. Because it is on the same domain, I do not think that one
should reference proprietary software from WORG pages, and justify it
by saying how it is category "you name it", because Org is part of GNU
free software project.

Imagine if GNU.org domain would have category where they reference
non-free software applications comparing them as good or bad one. That
would not fly. But GNU.org website may mention some proprietary
software, and will not give references to such (not that I know).

In that spirit shall be every GNU software.

I present my opinion only. Not the opinion of GNU project.

> The Org website is only https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/orgweb which is
> strictly abiding the FSF rules.

GNU and FSF are not same. I speak of GNU.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Best android app

[Max Nikulin]

On 17/10/2022 18:54, Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> Though for that, we can't steer users to review non-free software as
> that means to let them give up on their freedom.

I am unsure who has intention to steer users to non-free software. There 
was a message mentioning some application. I assume that the person was 
just unaware of strict rules. It will happen in future as well and I am 
against excessively aggressive reaction.

The person may be already familiar with that non-free apps. We had a 
chance to ask about features missed in free applications and actual 
experience. Perhaps the same tasks may be performed in a bit different 
and less obvious way and no modification of Org and Co is required. 
However you insist that we have to through away such possibilities and 
adding outcome from such conversations to web site is prohibited, so it 
makes it significantly harder to use obtained information in later 
discussions.

Better balanced position is necessary otherwise it would be just 
weakness in communication with people who do not care if some software 
is free.

> I find it unfortunate that some people create proprietary software
> that uses Org files.

It sounds like you regret about absence of a kind of vendor lock. File 
formats and communication protocols must be free. There are enough 
examples when free software can not be developed due to lack of 
specifications. Why would you expect cooperation from vendors if you 
wish to have fences at your side in similar cases?

It is more productive to consider proprietary apps as feature requests 
and to put efforts into improving of Org suite.

Re: Best android app

[Jean Louis]

* Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> [2022-10-19 15:53]:
> Better balanced position is necessary otherwise it would be just weakness in
> communication with people who do not care if some software is free.

Then such people have the chance to learn what is free software. Their
weakness is not to know what it is.

> > I find it unfortunate that some people create proprietary software
> > that uses Org files.
> 
> It sounds like you regret about absence of a kind of vendor lock. File
> formats and communication protocols must be free. There are enough examples
> when free software can not be developed due to lack of specifications. Why
> would you expect cooperation from vendors if you wish to have fences at your
> side in similar cases?

Vendor:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Vendor

You have misunderstood the idea. I have never mentioned "absence of a
kind of vendor lock" or similar.

So let us close that discussion and keep creating free software.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Best android app

[Max Nikulin]

On 20/10/2022 06:46, Jean Louis wrote:
> * Max Nikulin [2022-10-19 15:53]:

>> The person may be already familiar with that non-free apps. We had
>> a chance to ask about features missed in free applications and actual
>> experience. Perhaps the same tasks may be performed in a bit different
>> and less obvious way and no modification of Org and Co is required.
>> However you insist that we have to through away such possibilities and
>> adding outcome from such conversations to web site is prohibited, so it
>> makes it significantly harder to use obtained information in later
>> discussions.

>> Better balanced position is necessary otherwise it would be just weakness in
>> communication with people who do not care if some software is free.
> 
> Then such people have the chance to learn what is free software. Their
> weakness is not to know what it is.

I mean weakness of free software proponents. People will learn nothing 
if they meet just unreasonably harsh reaction or absence of convincing 
arguments.

>>> I find it unfortunate that some people create proprietary software
>>> that uses Org files.
>>
>> It sounds like you regret about absence of a kind of vendor lock. File
>> formats and communication protocols must be free. There are enough examples
>> when free software can not be developed due to lack of specifications. Why
>> would you expect cooperation from vendors if you wish to have fences at your
>> side in similar cases?
> 
> Vendor:
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Vendor

My mistake is that precise term should be "vendor lock-in". I am not a 
native English speaker, but I believe that the word "vendor" was used 
properly. I meant namely vendors, not suppliers.

> You have misunderstood the idea. I have never mentioned "absence of a
> kind of vendor lock" or similar.
> 
> So let us close that discussion and keep creating free software.

You expressed that you do not like that some proprietary software uses 
Org file. Such position is mirroring behavior of software vendors that 
are trying to prevent usage of file formats by other developers (vendor 
lock-in). More people considering restrictions on file formats 
acceptable means more obstacles for development of free software.

Re: Best android app

[Ihor Radchenko]

ypuntot <ypuntot@gmail.com> writes:

> Could these be added there?
>
> https://github.com/DanielDe/org-web
> https://easyorgmode.com/
> https://github.com/amake/orgro
> https://logseq.com/

Except for https://easyorgmode.com/, feel free to send a patch against 
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#org0a6fc30 in
https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: Best android app

[Ypo]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 800 bytes --]

Hi

I don't know how to send patches.

I have found the place where I want to add some lines:

https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg/tree/master/item/org-faq.org#L4502


I have cloned the "repository" hoping it works like in github, but I see 
no option to edit.


If I click on "prepare a patchset" I can just see past commits. I 
suppose first I should've done the commit, but how?:


Best regards


El 23/10/2022 a las 6:39, Ihor Radchenko escribió:
> ypuntot<ypuntot@gmail.com>  writes:
>
>> Could these be added there?
>>
>> https://github.com/DanielDe/org-web
>> https://easyorgmode.com/
>> https://github.com/amake/orgro
>> https://logseq.com/
> Except forhttps://easyorgmode.com/, feel free to send a patch against
> https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#org0a6fc30  in
> https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2551 bytes --]

Re: Best android app

[Ihor Radchenko]

Ypo <ypuntot@gmail.com> writes:

> I don't know how to send patches.
>
> I have found the place where I want to add some lines:
>
> https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg/tree/master/item/org-faq.org#L4502
>
>
> I have cloned the "repository" hoping it works like in github, but I see 
> no option to edit.

See https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html#orge1714bb

Or you can simply open the org-faq.org file, make your edits,
call M-x vc-diff, save the resulting buffer, and send it as an
attachment here.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: Best android app

[Max Nikulin]

On 23/10/2022 22:27, Ypo wrote:
> https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg/tree/master/item/org-faq.org#L4502
> 
> I have cloned the "repository" hoping it works like in github, but I see 
> no option to edit.

SourceHut does not have an online editor, it is necessary to clone the 
repository to local disk.

Alternatively, since Worg rules are not so strict as for Org source code 
repository,  you can download the .org file either from git.sr.ht or 
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.org copy to org-faq.orig.org, edit, 
create diff

LANG=C.UTF-8 diff -u org-faq.orig.org org-faq.org

For details see info "(diffutils) Tips for Patch Producers"
https://www.gnu.org/software/diffutils/manual/html_node/Tips-for-Patch-Producers.html

For maintainers it is more convenient to work with result of "git 
format-patch" having properly formatted commit message.

My suggestion is to add only projects that you use and can recommend for 
others. It would be nice to have brief description that allows people to 
decide if they should try such application. I do not see any point in 
attempt to collect comprehensive list of ever seen software. PageRank 
algorithm buried manually filled web catalogues. There is no reason to 
participate in such desperate competition.

Re: Best android app

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> [2022-10-24 05:52]:
> 
> Except for https://easyPLAGIARISM.com/, feel free to send a patch
> against 

Pure Plagiarism.

Getting customers for proprietary software through Org mailing list.

Plagiarists getting smarter and smarter.

* Overview of noun plagiarism

The noun plagiarism has 2 senses (no senses from tagged texts)
1. plagiarism -- (a piece of writing that has been copied from someone
else and is presented as being your own work)

2. plagiarism, plagiarization, plagiarisation, piracy -- (the act of
plagiarizing; taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your
own)

Additionally "Org Mode" qualifies as trademark in Sweden, where this
company is registered. 

I advise to Org Mode authors to defend against plagiarism, as they
call it Emacs Org Mode -- which is not. I do not mind if anybody will
complain or not -- I am only pointing out to not ethical behavior of
that company.

It would be fine to say that they use headings and TODO things
similarly like Org Mode, but their wordings for proprietary software I
find very deceptive. 

,----
| "Emacs Org mode Made Easy
| 
| EasyOrg is compatible and comes with many of the functionalities
| provided by Emacs Org mode, but with more user friendliness. Both
| Editor and Agenda provided."
`----

These words cheat the reader by telling that it is "compatible"
something, while it is not editor mode, it is probably whole editor
and software without Emacs.


Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

GPL violation related to Org by priprietary app (was: Best android app)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> Additionally "Org Mode" qualifies as trademark in Sweden, where this
> company is registered. 
>
> I advise to Org Mode authors to defend against plagiarism, as they
> call it Emacs Org Mode -- which is not. I do not mind if anybody will
> complain or not -- I am only pointing out to not ethical behavior of
> that company.
>
> It would be fine to say that they use headings and TODO things
> similarly like Org Mode, but their wordings for proprietary software I
> find very deceptive. 
>
> ,----
> | "Emacs Org mode Made Easy
> | 
> | EasyOrg is compatible and comes with many of the functionalities
> | provided by Emacs Org mode, but with more user friendliness. Both
> | Editor and Agenda provided."
> `----
>
> These words cheat the reader by telling that it is "compatible"
> something, while it is not editor mode, it is probably whole editor
> and software without Emacs.

Are you saying that there is GPL violation of Org mode licence by this
"EasyOrg" app?

If it is true, could you please provide links to legal basis on from
GPL's and Swedish law's points of view?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: GPL violation related to Org by priprietary app (was: Best android app)

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> [2022-10-25 10:30]:
> > These words cheat the reader by telling that it is "compatible"
> > something, while it is not editor mode, it is probably whole editor
> > and software without Emacs.
> 
> Are you saying that there is GPL violation of Org mode licence by this
> "EasyOrg" app?

I did not say that. Plagiarism is not always equal to license
violations. 

> If it is true, could you please provide links to legal basis on from
> GPL's and Swedish law's points of view?

In my opinion the term "Org Mode" is collective trademark:

Trademark FAQs | USPTO:
https://www.uspto.gov/learning-and-resources/trademark-faqs#type-browse-faqs_1934
valid only for US jurisdiction.

Trademarks need not be registered, especially when it is clear who was
first using it, there is no doubt that Org Mode is term used to
promote software and software is commercial subject.

Those who started using first "Org Mode", like author or whoever is
assigned to it, are free to tell to the website, to stop using it, or
demand part of their profits in Sweden.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: GPL violation related to Org by priprietary app (was: Best android app)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

>> If it is true, could you please provide links to legal basis on from
>> GPL's and Swedish law's points of view?
>
> In my opinion the term "Org Mode" is collective trademark:
>
> Trademark FAQs | USPTO:
> https://www.uspto.gov/learning-and-resources/trademark-faqs#type-browse-faqs_1934
> valid only for US jurisdiction.
>
> Trademarks need not be registered, especially when it is clear who was
> first using it, there is no doubt that Org Mode is term used to
> promote software and software is commercial subject.
>
> Those who started using first "Org Mode", like author or whoever is
> assigned to it, are free to tell to the website, to stop using it, or
> demand part of their profits in Sweden.

If GPL is not violated I see no reason for current Org maintainers to
bother. I'd better focus on improving Org rather than trying to engage
into legal complexities.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: GPL violation related to Org by priprietary app (was: Best android app)

[Tim Cross]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>
>>> If it is true, could you please provide links to legal basis on from
>>> GPL's and Swedish law's points of view?
>>
>> In my opinion the term "Org Mode" is collective trademark:
>>
>> Trademark FAQs | USPTO:
>> https://www.uspto.gov/learning-and-resources/trademark-faqs#type-browse-faqs_1934
>> valid only for US jurisdiction.
>>
>> Trademarks need not be registered, especially when it is clear who was
>> first using it, there is no doubt that Org Mode is term used to
>> promote software and software is commercial subject.
>>
>> Those who started using first "Org Mode", like author or whoever is
>> assigned to it, are free to tell to the website, to stop using it, or
>> demand part of their profits in Sweden.
>
> If GPL is not violated I see no reason for current Org maintainers to
> bother. I'd better focus on improving Org rather than trying to engage
> into legal complexities.

Even if it was violated, this is not something the maintainers are
empowered to act on anyway. Org mode is part of Emacs and the FSF owns
the copyright. If there is any GPL violation, the FSF has a whole legal
team which deal with such matters. It certainly isn't something
maintainers or arm chair lawyers are able to address.

Also, based on my limited legal experience and past dealings with
trademarks, copyright and licenses, I don't think there has been either
a GPL license violation or a trade mark violation.  However, if someone
believes differently, they should refer the matter to the FSF legal
office.

Re: GPL violation related to Org by priprietary app (was: Best android app)

[tomas]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 810 bytes --]

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 12:12:46AM +1100, Tim Cross wrote:

[...]

> Even if it was violated, this is not something the maintainers are
> empowered to act on anyway [...]

This depends perhaps on what one understands by "act on". If that
means "go to court" you are, of course, right. If that means just
"make aware FSF legal of a possible violation", then the question
here boils just down to "do we have enough confidence to justify
annoying FSF legal with this?

> Also, based on my limited legal experience and past dealings with
> trademarks, copyright and licenses, I don't think there has been either
> a GPL license violation or a trade mark violation.  However, if someone
> believes differently, they should refer the matter to the FSF legal
> office.

Exactly.

Cheers
-- 
t

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --]