carbon build hangs on startup

carbon build hangs on startup

[Cyrus Harmon]

For the past month or so, on macos (intel/10.4.10) carbon builds from  
the latest CVS source hang on startup. Has anyone else tried/seen  
this? Any suggestions? I'd be happy to provide more diagnostic  
information if that will help, but I figured I'd check and see if  
this is a known issue first.

Thanks,

Cyrus

Re: carbon build hangs on startup

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Cyrus Harmon <ch-emacs@bobobeach.com> writes:

  > For the past month or so, on macos (intel/10.4.10) carbon builds from
  > the latest CVS source hang on startup. Has anyone else tried/seen
  > this? Any suggestions? I'd be happy to provide more diagnostic
  > information if that will help, but I figured I'd check and see if
  > this is a known issue first.

The Carbon port on CVS trunk has been abandoned by its maintainers and
it is known to be broken.  If you don't intend to work on fixing it,
it is better to avoid it. The X11 port should still work ... 

Re: carbon build hangs on startup

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Dan" == Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:

Dan> The Carbon port on CVS trunk has been abandoned by its maintainers and
Dan> it is known to be broken.  If you don't intend to work on fixing it,
Dan> it is better to avoid it. The X11 port should still work ... 

For some meaning of "work".  I don't fire up X11 on my mac more than once
every month or two.  But I use Carbon Emacs every day... it's essential in my
workflow.

What kind of skills are needed to make Carbon Emacs "work" again?  Maybe I can
go to the OSX mailing lists and plea for someone to pick up the cause.  But I
need to know what skills a person will need.  Can someone at least outline
that?

-- 
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Re: carbon build hangs on startup

[Dan Nicolaescu]

merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) writes:

  > 
  > What kind of skills are needed to make Carbon Emacs "work" again?
  > Maybe I can go to the OSX mailing lists and plea for someone to
  > pick up the cause.  But I need to know what skills a person will
  > need.  Can someone at least outline that?

The keyboard input does not work right, keyboard events are not
processed correctly. Also IMHO something in mac*.c needs to call
add_keyboard_wait_descriptor


Hope this helps..

Re: carbon build hangs on startup

[Jason Rumney]

Dan Nicolaescu wrote:
> The keyboard input does not work right, keyboard events are not
> processed correctly. Also IMHO something in mac*.c needs to call
> add_keyboard_wait_descriptor
>   
Is the second simply the fix for the first? On Windows keyboard input
was broken until I added the line:

 add_keyboard_wait_descriptor (0);


Keyboard input on Windows is not done through stdin, but it still seemed
to be needed to get the input loop working.

Re: carbon build hangs on startup

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Jason Rumney <jasonr@gnu.org> writes:

  > Dan Nicolaescu wrote:
  > > The keyboard input does not work right, keyboard events are not
  > > processed correctly. Also IMHO something in mac*.c needs to call
  > > add_keyboard_wait_descriptor
  > >   
  > Is the second simply the fix for the first?

Don't know...

  > On Windows keyboard input was broken until I added the line:
  > 
  >  add_keyboard_wait_descriptor (0);
  > 
  > 
  > Keyboard input on Windows is not done through stdin, but it still seemed
  > to be needed to get the input loop working.

Re: carbon build hangs on startup

[YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu]

>>>>> On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 08:05:51 -0700, merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) said:

>>>>> "Dan" == Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
Dan> The Carbon port on CVS trunk has been abandoned by its
Dan> maintainers and it is known to be broken.  If you don't intend to
Dan> work on fixing it, it is better to avoid it. The X11 port should
Dan> still work ...

> For some meaning of "work".  I don't fire up X11 on my mac more than
> once every month or two.  But I use Carbon Emacs every day... it's
> essential in my workflow.

We've at last got an official release version (22.1) for that.  I had
spent much time and effort for this version.

> What kind of skills are needed to make Carbon Emacs "work" again?
> Maybe I can go to the OSX mailing lists and plea for someone to pick
> up the cause.

Of course it's up to you whether to make such a plea.  But keep in
mind that developers' time and effort for multi-tty and Unicode
support on the Carbon port might be wasted if the Cocoa/GNUStep port
becomes good enough for Emacs 23.  I don't think it's a good idea to
invest them in catching up with the trunk NOW.

The situation is different from that of pre-22: we have a brand-new
first stable release version running on the Mac native window system
and ordinary Mac users don't need to use the CVS version, there's an
alternative, and the next major release does not happen too soon.

				     YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
				mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp

Re: carbon build hangs on startup

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "YAMAMOTO" == YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu <mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp> writes:

>> For some meaning of "work".  I don't fire up X11 on my mac more than
>> once every month or two.  But I use Carbon Emacs every day... it's
>> essential in my workflow.

YAMAMOTO> We've at last got an official release version (22.1) for that.  I had
YAMAMOTO> spent much time and effort for this version.

Yes, I'm using the 22.1 version.

YAMAMOTO> Of course it's up to you whether to make such a plea.  But keep in
YAMAMOTO> mind that developers' time and effort for multi-tty and Unicode
YAMAMOTO> support on the Carbon port might be wasted if the Cocoa/GNUStep port
YAMAMOTO> becomes good enough for Emacs 23.  I don't think it's a good idea to
YAMAMOTO> invest them in catching up with the trunk NOW.

YAMAMOTO> The situation is different from that of pre-22: we have a brand-new
YAMAMOTO> first stable release version running on the Mac native window system
YAMAMOTO> and ordinary Mac users don't need to use the CVS version, there's an
YAMAMOTO> alternative, and the next major release does not happen too soon.

So, you're saying that there will be a non-X11 version of Emacs for OSX in the
works, even though it's not usable just yet?  Do you have an idea of when it
might be usable?

-- 
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<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
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Re: carbon build hangs on startup

[YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu]

>>>>> On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 19:56:49 -0700, merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) said:

YAMAMOTO> Of course it's up to you whether to make such a plea.  But
YAMAMOTO> keep in mind that developers' time and effort for multi-tty
YAMAMOTO> and Unicode support on the Carbon port might be wasted if
YAMAMOTO> the Cocoa/GNUStep port becomes good enough for Emacs 23.  I
YAMAMOTO> don't think it's a good idea to invest them in catching up
YAMAMOTO> with the trunk NOW.

YAMAMOTO> The situation is different from that of pre-22: we have a
YAMAMOTO> brand-new first stable release version running on the Mac
YAMAMOTO> native window system and ordinary Mac users don't need to
YAMAMOTO> use the CVS version, there's an alternative, and the next
YAMAMOTO> major release does not happen too soon.

> So, you're saying that there will be a non-X11 version of Emacs for
> OSX in the works, even though it's not usable just yet?  Do you have
> an idea of when it might be usable?

I'm not saying it is not "usable".  You can try and see it yourself by
downloading it from http://emacs-app.sourceforge.net/.  I think it's
too early to judge if it becomes good enough for Emacs 23.

				      YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
				mituaharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp

Re: carbon build hangs on startup

[Cyrus Harmon]

I've been using this build for a few days now. IMHO, it would be nice  
if this were merged with the current CVS version. This would  
certainly be preferable to an abandoned, no-longer functioning Carbon  
port.

Cyrus

On Oct 7, 2007, at 8:59 PM, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu wrote:

>>>>>> On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 19:56:49 -0700, merlyn@stonehenge.com  
>>>>>> (Randal L. Schwartz) said:
>
> YAMAMOTO> Of course it's up to you whether to make such a plea.  But
> YAMAMOTO> keep in mind that developers' time and effort for multi-tty
> YAMAMOTO> and Unicode support on the Carbon port might be wasted if
> YAMAMOTO> the Cocoa/GNUStep port becomes good enough for Emacs 23.  I
> YAMAMOTO> don't think it's a good idea to invest them in catching up
> YAMAMOTO> with the trunk NOW.
>
> YAMAMOTO> The situation is different from that of pre-22: we have a
> YAMAMOTO> brand-new first stable release version running on the Mac
> YAMAMOTO> native window system and ordinary Mac users don't need to
> YAMAMOTO> use the CVS version, there's an alternative, and the next
> YAMAMOTO> major release does not happen too soon.
>
>> So, you're saying that there will be a non-X11 version of Emacs for
>> OSX in the works, even though it's not usable just yet?  Do you have
>> an idea of when it might be usable?
>
> I'm not saying it is not "usable".  You can try and see it yourself by
> downloading it from http://emacs-app.sourceforge.net/.  I think it's
> too early to judge if it becomes good enough for Emacs 23.
>
> 				      YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
> 				mituaharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-devel mailing list
> Emacs-devel@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-devel

Re: carbon build hangs on startup

[YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu]

>>>>> On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:08:07 -0700, Cyrus Harmon <ch-emacs@bobobeach.com> said:

> I've been using this build for a few days now. IMHO, it would be
> nice if this were merged with the current CVS version. This would
> certainly be preferable to an abandoned, no-longer functioning
> Carbon port.

Its merger to the trunk would not happen until the unicode-2 branch
gets merged to the trunk, as the Cocoa/GNUstep port is based on the
unicode-2 branch.

I don't understand why people, especially those who don't do the
actual development, are in a hurry.

				     YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
				mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp

Re: carbon build hangs on startup

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "YAMAMOTO" == YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu <mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp> writes:

YAMAMOTO> I don't understand why people, especially those who don't do the
YAMAMOTO> actual development, are in a hurry.

I don't understand why you don't understand. :)

From a practical perspective, I'm quite happy to continue to use the
carbon-compatible 21.1 port.  But I'm also interested in continuing to be a
"canary in the mine" to ensure that newer releases of GNU Emacs continue to
run on my platform of choice.  I've temporarily suspended that activity, until
there's something for me to download and run.  Also, newer releases have new
cool features, so I want to be able to not be left behind.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
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Re: carbon build hangs on startup

[Dan Nicolaescu]

merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) writes:

  > >>>>> "Dan" == Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:
  > 
  > Dan> The Carbon port on CVS trunk has been abandoned by its maintainers and
  > Dan> it is known to be broken.  If you don't intend to work on fixing it,
  > Dan> it is better to avoid it. The X11 port should still work ... 
  > 
  > For some meaning of "work".  I don't fire up X11 on my mac more than once
  > every month or two.  But I use Carbon Emacs every day... it's essential in my
  > workflow.

Could you please try again emacs from CVS HEAD? I just fixed a typo
that might be the cause of the input problem on Carbon.
If that does not work, please also try adding:

add_keyboard_wait_descriptor (0);

to macterm.c:mac_term_init before UNBLOCK_INPUT.

Re: carbon build hangs on startup

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Dan" == Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes:

Dan> Could you please try again emacs from CVS HEAD? I just fixed a typo
Dan> that might be the cause of the input problem on Carbon.

It built, but was really sluggish, and then just beachballed.

I do know that it still has the "loses the default face on a new window" bug
that I reported a while back.  But I couldn't test much further.

Dan> If that does not work, please also try adding:

Dan> add_keyboard_wait_descriptor (0);

Dan> to macterm.c:mac_term_init before UNBLOCK_INPUT.

That didn't seem to change anything.

I'm reverting back to 22.1 for a while again, until Someone Smarter
Than Me can help out more.  Still wondering what skills I'm looking
for if I go troll in the OSX groups.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
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Carbon port input problems: keyboard events linger (was: carbon build hangs on startup)

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:02:28 -0700 Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> wrote: 

DN> Could you please try again emacs from CVS HEAD? I just fixed a typo
DN> that might be the cause of the input problem on Carbon.
DN> If that does not work, please also try adding:

DN> add_keyboard_wait_descriptor (0);

DN> to macterm.c:mac_term_init before UNBLOCK_INPUT.

Hi Dan,

I tries the latest CVS HEAD with and without this change.  Your recent
changes and the add_keyboard_wait_descriptor call didn't make a
difference, the input loop still takes a while to catch up with keyboard
events.

Thanks for looking at it again
Ted