Build Emacs without Lisp?

Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Jeffrey Walton]

I'm working in a Debian S/390x Chroot (https://www.debian.org/ports/).
Its a lightweight VM-like command line environment.

I'm trying to build emacs from sources because the port does not have
a suitable package available. The features I need are (a) Open file
(b) Save file (c) Search in buffer and (d) Replace in buffer.
Everything else is superfluous. Below is my Configure line.

Things are dying during 'make install':

Using load-path (/root/emacs-24.5/lisp
/root/emacs-24.5/lisp/emacs-lisp /root/emacs-24.5/lisp/language
/root/emacs-24.5/lisp/international /root/emacs-24.5/lisp/textmodes
/root/emacs-24.5/lisp/vc)
Loading emacs-lisp/byte-run...
/bin/bash: line 7: 23039 Segmentation fault      ./temacs --batch
--load loadup bootstrap
Makefile:815: recipe for target 'bootstrap-emacs' failed
make[1]: *** [bootstrap-emacs] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory '/root/emacs-24.5/src'
Makefile:387: recipe for target 'src' failed
make: *** [src] Error 2

Fixing bugs in Debian does not move as quickly as one would hope. And
I have observed fixing them in a port moves even slower. Additionally,
GDB usually suffers some degree of not-working-ness.

I'd like to try skipping LISP since I don't use it. Configure does not
discuss disgorging Lisp:

./configure --help | grep -i lisp
  --enable-locallisppath=PATH
            directories Emacs should search for lisp files
  --enable-check-lisp-object-type
            enable compile time checks for the Lisp_Object data

My questions are:

  - Is it possible to build emacs without Lisp? If so, how?

  - Are there other work arounds available for the seg fault?

Thanks in advance.

----------

./configure --with-xml2 --with-zlib --without-x --without-sound
--without-xpm   --without-jpeg --without-tiff --without-gif
--without-png --without-rsvg   --without-imagemagick --without-xft
--without-libotf --without-m17n-flt   --without-xaw3d
--without-toolkit-scroll-bars --without-gpm --without-dbus
--without-gconf --without-gsettings --without-makeinfo

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Emanuel Berg]

Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> writes:

> My questions are:
>
> - Is it possible to build emacs without Lisp?
>   If so, how?

Yes, in the sense it is possible to have a gun
barrel without a rifle! Just relax you
shoulders and remove it geeently...

No, with Emacs, you use Lisp whether you know
it or not.

And why would you even want to remove it?

-- 
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
                   - so far: 55 Blogomatic articles -                   

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> writes:

> I'm working in a Debian S/390x Chroot (https://www.debian.org/ports/).
> Its a lightweight VM-like command line environment.
>
> I'm trying to build emacs from sources because the port does not have
> a suitable package available. The features I need are (a) Open file
> (b) Save file (c) Search in buffer and (d) Replace in buffer.
> Everything else is superfluous. Below is my Configure line.
>
> Things are dying during 'make install':
>
> Using load-path (/root/emacs-24.5/lisp
> /root/emacs-24.5/lisp/emacs-lisp /root/emacs-24.5/lisp/language
> /root/emacs-24.5/lisp/international /root/emacs-24.5/lisp/textmodes
> /root/emacs-24.5/lisp/vc)
> Loading emacs-lisp/byte-run...
> /bin/bash: line 7: 23039 Segmentation fault      ./temacs --batch
> --load loadup bootstrap
> Makefile:815: recipe for target 'bootstrap-emacs' failed
> make[1]: *** [bootstrap-emacs] Error 1
> make[1]: Leaving directory '/root/emacs-24.5/src'
> Makefile:387: recipe for target 'src' failed
> make: *** [src] Error 2
>
> Fixing bugs in Debian does not move as quickly as one would hope. And
> I have observed fixing them in a port moves even slower. Additionally,
> GDB usually suffers some degree of not-working-ness.
>
> I'd like to try skipping LISP since I don't use it. Configure does not
> discuss disgorging Lisp:
>
> ./configure --help | grep -i lisp
>   --enable-locallisppath=PATH
>             directories Emacs should search for lisp files
>   --enable-check-lisp-object-type
>             enable compile time checks for the Lisp_Object data
>
> My questions are:
>
>   - Is it possible to build emacs without Lisp? If so, how?

Yes.  You've already done it.
temacs is the emacs built without lisp.
The bug is in the C code, not in lisp code.
Bugs in lisp code don't make the program crash!


>   - Are there other work arounds available for the seg fault?

Debug the C code of emacs.



-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                 http://www.informatimago.com/
“The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a
dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to
keep the man from touching the equipment.” -- Carl Bass CEO Autodesk

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Emanuel Berg]

"Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com>
writes:

>> Is it possible to build emacs without Lisp?
>> If so, how?
>
> Yes. You've already done it. temacs is the
> emacs built without lisp. The bug is in the
> C code, not in lisp code. Bugs in lisp code
> don't make the program crash!

Aha, you (the OP) want to isolate a problem in
debugging! When you wrote "I'd like to try
skipping LISP since I don't use it." I thought
- well, it doesn't matter. Apologies.

-- 
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
                   - so far: 55 Blogomatic articles -                   

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Phillip Lord]

If this is all you need, I think you would be better of using perl. Almost
everything else that emacs does involves running some lisp.

In this case, you have a segmentation fault during the build which could
be considered to be a bug (although you might be running in an unsupported
environment). I would consider reporting it as a bug.

You might also want to try the alpha pretest sources for Emacs 25.

Phil

On Sat, June 25, 2016 8:50 am, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> I'm working in a Debian S/390x Chroot (https://www.debian.org/ports/).
> Its a lightweight VM-like command line environment.
>
>
> I'm trying to build emacs from sources because the port does not have
> a suitable package available. The features I need are (a) Open file (b)
> Save file (c) Search in buffer and (d) Replace in buffer.
> Everything else is superfluous. Below is my Configure line.
>
>
> Things are dying during 'make install':
>
>
> Using load-path (/root/emacs-24.5/lisp
> /root/emacs-24.5/lisp/emacs-lisp /root/emacs-24.5/lisp/language
> /root/emacs-24.5/lisp/international /root/emacs-24.5/lisp/textmodes
> /root/emacs-24.5/lisp/vc)
> Loading emacs-lisp/byte-run...
> /bin/bash: line 7: 23039 Segmentation fault      ./temacs --batch
> --load loadup bootstrap
> Makefile:815: recipe for target 'bootstrap-emacs' failed
> make[1]: *** [bootstrap-emacs] Error 1
> make[1]: Leaving directory '/root/emacs-24.5/src'
> Makefile:387: recipe for target 'src' failed
> make: *** [src] Error 2
>
>
> Fixing bugs in Debian does not move as quickly as one would hope. And
> I have observed fixing them in a port moves even slower. Additionally,
> GDB usually suffers some degree of not-working-ness.
>
>
> I'd like to try skipping LISP since I don't use it. Configure does not
> discuss disgorging Lisp:
>
> ./configure --help | grep -i lisp
> --enable-locallisppath=PATH
> directories Emacs should search for lisp files
> --enable-check-lisp-object-type
> enable compile time checks for the Lisp_Object data
>
> My questions are:
>
>
> - Is it possible to build emacs without Lisp? If so, how?
>
>
> - Are there other work arounds available for the seg fault?
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
> ----------
>
>
> ./configure --with-xml2 --with-zlib --without-x --without-sound
> --without-xpm   --without-jpeg --without-tiff --without-gif
> --without-png --without-rsvg   --without-imagemagick --without-xft
> --without-libotf --without-m17n-flt   --without-xaw3d
> --without-toolkit-scroll-bars --without-gpm --without-dbus
> --without-gconf --without-gsettings --without-makeinfo
>
>
>

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Jeffrey Walton]

>> My questions are:
>>
>>   - Is it possible to build emacs without Lisp? If so, how?
>
> Yes.  You've already done it.
> temacs is the emacs built without lisp.
> The bug is in the C code, not in lisp code.
> Bugs in lisp code don't make the program crash!
>
>>   - Are there other work arounds available for the seg fault?
>
> Debug the C code of emacs.

Lol... You assume the debugger works. That's a whole 'nother can of worms.

Jeff

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Rusi]

On Saturday, June 25, 2016 at 7:10:28 PM UTC+5:30, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> I'm working in a Debian S/390x Chroot (https://www.debian.org/ports/).
> Its a lightweight VM-like command line environment.
> 
> I'm trying to build emacs from sources because the port does not have
> a suitable package available. The features I need are (a) Open file
> (b) Save file (c) Search in buffer and (d) Replace in buffer.
> Everything else is superfluous. Below is my Configure line.
> 
> Things are dying during 'make install':
> 
> Using load-path (/root/emacs-24.5/lisp
> /root/emacs-24.5/lisp/emacs-lisp /root/emacs-24.5/lisp/language
> /root/emacs-24.5/lisp/international /root/emacs-24.5/lisp/textmodes
> /root/emacs-24.5/lisp/vc)
> Loading emacs-lisp/byte-run...
> /bin/bash: line 7: 23039 Segmentation fault      ./temacs --batch
> --load loadup bootstrap
> Makefile:815: recipe for target 'bootstrap-emacs' failed
> make[1]: *** [bootstrap-emacs] Error 1
> make[1]: Leaving directory '/root/emacs-24.5/src'
> Makefile:387: recipe for target 'src' failed
> make: *** [src] Error 2
> 
> Fixing bugs in Debian does not move as quickly as one would hope. And
> I have observed fixing them in a port moves even slower. Additionally,
> GDB usually suffers some degree of not-working-ness.
> 
> I'd like to try skipping LISP since I don't use it. Configure does not
> discuss disgorging Lisp:
> 
> ./configure --help | grep -i lisp
>   --enable-locallisppath=PATH
>             directories Emacs should search for lisp files
>   --enable-check-lisp-object-type
>             enable compile time checks for the Lisp_Object data
> 
> My questions are:
> 
>   - Is it possible to build emacs without Lisp? If so, how?
> 
>   - Are there other work arounds available for the seg fault?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> ----------
> 
> ./configure --with-xml2 --with-zlib --without-x --without-sound
> --without-xpm   --without-jpeg --without-tiff --without-gif
> --without-png --without-rsvg   --without-imagemagick --without-xft
> --without-libotf --without-m17n-flt   --without-xaw3d
> --without-toolkit-scroll-bars --without-gpm --without-dbus
> --without-gconf --without-gsettings --without-makeinfo

Taking your subject line literally (ie not the usual way its done today
to suggest emacs = gnu-emacs)
have you seen this list of 'smaller' emacsen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs#Various_Emacs_editors

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Jeffrey Walton]

>> My questions are:
>>
>>   - Is it possible to build emacs without Lisp? If so, how?
>>
>>   - Are there other work arounds available for the seg fault?
>>
>
> Taking your subject line literally (ie not the usual way its done today
> to suggest emacs = gnu-emacs)
> have you seen this list of 'smaller' emacsen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs#Various_Emacs_editors

Thanks, that's a good point. I'm so used to emacs, I grab it with no thought.

Maybe an emacs knock-off is a better solution until we get a working
debugger to investigate the issue.

Jeff

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Rusi]

On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 5:50:15 PM UTC+5:30, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> >> My questions are:
> >>
> >>   - Is it possible to build emacs without Lisp? If so, how?
> >>
> >>   - Are there other work arounds available for the seg fault?
> >>
> >
> > Taking your subject line literally (ie not the usual way its done today
> > to suggest emacs = gnu-emacs)
> > have you seen this list of 'smaller' emacsen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs#Various_Emacs_editors
> 
> Thanks, that's a good point. I'm so used to emacs, I grab it with no thought.
> 
> Maybe an emacs knock-off is a better solution until we get a working
> debugger to investigate the issue.
> 

My first encounter with emacs was 25 years ago -- jove -- pure C
[Not counting edwin -- pure scheme -- around the same time]
I'd be surprised if that stuff worked today... 

IOW How much of that list is current... Dunno

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Yuri Khan]

On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm working in a Debian S/390x Chroot (https://www.debian.org/ports/).
> Its a lightweight VM-like command line environment.
>
> I'm trying to build emacs from sources because the port does not have
> a suitable package available. The features I need are (a) Open file
> (b) Save file (c) Search in buffer and (d) Replace in buffer.
> Everything else is superfluous. Below is my Configure line.

If those are your only requirements, you might make do with just cat,
grep and sed.

Also, if your goal is not specifically to have the chroot as your
primary working environment, you might be able to set up some kind of
access to the file system of your chroot for your primary environment,
and work with that, possibly via Tramp.

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Klaus Schilling]

Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> Taking your subject line literally (ie not the usual way its done today
>> to suggest emacs = gnu-emacs)
>> have you seen this list of 'smaller' emacsen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs#Various_Emacs_editors
>
> Thanks, that's a good point. I'm so used to emacs, I grab it with no thought.
>
> Maybe an emacs knock-off is a better solution until we get a working
> debugger to investigate the issue.

The GNU Zile project might be useful in that context. It includes a
superficial lookalike with very low memory usage.

Klaus Schilling

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Phillip Lord]

On Sun, June 26, 2016 1:20 pm, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
>>> My questions are:
>>>
>>>
>>> - Is it possible to build emacs without Lisp? If so, how?
>>>
>>>
>>> - Are there other work arounds available for the seg fault?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Taking your subject line literally (ie not the usual way its done today
>>  to suggest emacs = gnu-emacs) have you seen this list of 'smaller'
>> emacsen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs#Various_Emacs_editors
>>
>
> Thanks, that's a good point. I'm so used to emacs, I grab it with no
> thought.
>
> Maybe an emacs knock-off is a better solution until we get a working
> debugger to investigate the issue.

You haven't said yet what you are actually trying to achieve (other than
build emacs).

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Bob Proulx]

Rusi wrote:
> My first encounter with emacs was 25 years ago -- jove -- pure C
> [Not counting edwin -- pure scheme -- around the same time]
> I'd be surprised if that stuff worked today... 

The code exists.  It is free libre.  So why not?  On my Debian system:

  $ apt-cache show jove
    Description-en: Jonathan's Own Version of Emacs - a compact, powerful editor
     Jove is a compact, powerful Emacs-style text-editor. It provides the common
     emacs keyboard bindings, together with a reasonable assortment of the most
     popular advanced features (e.g. interactive shell windows, compile-it,
     language specific modes) while weighing in with CPU, memory, and disk
     requirements comparable to vi(1).

Installs and runs today.  No problem! :-)

Bob

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 12:58 PM, Phillip Lord
<phillip.lord@russet.org.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, June 26, 2016 1:20 pm, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
>>>> My questions are:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - Is it possible to build emacs without Lisp? If so, how?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - Are there other work arounds available for the seg fault?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Taking your subject line literally (ie not the usual way its done today
>>>  to suggest emacs = gnu-emacs) have you seen this list of 'smaller'
>>> emacsen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs#Various_Emacs_editors
>>>
>>
>> Thanks, that's a good point. I'm so used to emacs, I grab it with no
>> thought.
>>
>> Maybe an emacs knock-off is a better solution until we get a working
>> debugger to investigate the issue.
>
> You haven't said yet what you are actually trying to achieve (other than
> build emacs).

The goal is to use Emacs as my text editor.

The goal is composed into subtask because there's no Emacs package,
and no working debugger.

Building Emacs from is turning into a dead end because it can't
complete its tests (for whatever reason). We can't really investigate
why because there's working debugger.

If the problem is Bash, then I can switch to a different shell that
may work, or I can forgo the steps that include bash. I'm happy to do
whatever the group advises.

Jeff

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Emanuel Berg]

Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> writes:

> The goal is to use Emacs as my text editor.

Are you on some uncommon platform where you
have to compile everything manually or why
don't you just use the distro's package manager
to install it?

-- 
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
                   - so far: 55 Blogomatic articles -                   

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Jeffrey Walton]

>> The goal is to use Emacs as my text editor.
>
> Are you on some uncommon platform where you
> have to compile everything manually or why
> don't you just use the distro's package manager
> to install it?

Yes. I'm in a Debian QEMU/Chroot for S/390x because I don't have
access to one. Debian tests our package under it via Porter, so I'm
using their methodology. Also see http://www.debian.org/ports/.

We added Ports testing because Debian was finding bugs under these
platforms. We are trying to get out in front of things rather than
playing catch-up.

I'm pretty sure the Debian's Bash package is broken, but it happens to
work on i686 and x86_64, Aarch32, Aarch64 and a few others. However,
when it runs on S/390, Sparc64 and a few others, it seg faults. Also
see https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=828041.

I _suspect_ the Debian Bash bug is due to a non-static jmpbuf, but I
have not had time to investigate it. The jmpbuf happens to be zero'd
on some platforms because of the zero-page writer, but it gets unlucky
on some others. The suspicion is based on the 828041 bug above.

For completeness, I suspect the problems in this thread are the reason
Emacs is not available for S/390: (1) Bash is broken, so it fails self
tests; and (2) GDB is broken so no one can investigate why.

Jeff

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Jeffrey Walton]

>> Are you on some uncommon platform where you
>> have to compile everything manually or why
>> don't you just use the distro's package manager
>> to install it?
>
> Yes. I'm in a Debian QEMU/Chroot for S/390x because I don't have
> access to one. Debian tests our package under it via Porter, so I'm
> using their methodology. Also see http://www.debian.org/ports/.

If you are interested in testing Emacs under the Debian Ports, then
here's the documentation I put together for the project I work with:
http://cryptopp.com/wiki/Debian_Chroot . Its the 30-second tour to get
one of the QEMU/Choort guests up and running on a host.

Note well: the host can run Debian 8/Jessie Stable, Testing or
Unstable. The guest must run Unstable. Almost all guests use
'http://ftp.ports.debian.org/debian-ports' as the debootstrap URI. X32
is a notable counter example.

As someone else noted, I often have to use echo to write the proper
sources.list in a guest because I don't have emacs:

    echo "deb http://ftp.ports.debian.org/debian-ports unstable main
updates" > /etc/apt/sources.list

Jeff

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Phillip Lord]

On Sun, June 26, 2016 8:14 pm, Jeffrey Walton wrote:

>>> Maybe an emacs knock-off is a better solution until we get a working
>>> debugger to investigate the issue.
>>
>> You haven't said yet what you are actually trying to achieve (other
>> than build emacs).
>
> The goal is to use Emacs as my text editor.
>
>
> The goal is composed into subtask because there's no Emacs package,
> and no working debugger.
>
> Building Emacs from is turning into a dead end because it can't
> complete its tests (for whatever reason). We can't really investigate why
> because there's working debugger.


Okay, so, I think you need to start from the beginning. A short while
back, I got the impression that build was crashing during bootstrap, i.e.
it was a core dump from temacs. This has nothing to do with emacs' tests,
which IIRC are not distributed with emacs source.

So, the problem is not "Build Emacs without Lisp" but "Emacs build fails
on Debian chroot S390x"?

If this is the case, then I think you have either a bug or an unsupported
platform. Probably the next best step is to submit a bug report.

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Jeffrey Walton]

> Okay, so, I think you need to start from the beginning. A short while
> back, I got the impression that build was crashing during bootstrap, i.e.
> it was a core dump from temacs. This has nothing to do with emacs' tests,
> which IIRC are not distributed with emacs source.
>
> So, the problem is not "Build Emacs without Lisp" but "Emacs build fails
> on Debian chroot S390x"?
>
> If this is the case, then I think you have either a bug or an unsupported
> platform. Probably the next best step is to submit a bug report.

I understand it may be unsupported, but that's not very helpful to me.

I'm trying to find something that works so I can get on with my task at hand :)

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Emanuel Berg]

Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> writes:

>> Are you on some uncommon platform where you
>> have to compile everything manually or why
>> don't you just use the distro's package
>> manager to install it?
>
> Yes. I'm in a Debian QEMU/Chroot for S/390x

S/390x - is that the IBM ESA/390 mainframe of
the 90s?

Really? You have one at home?

> For completeness, I suspect the problems in
> this thread are the reason Emacs is not
> available for S/390: (1) Bash is broken, so
> it fails self tests; and (2) GDB is broken so
> no one can investigate why.

Well,

(1) there are other ways to debug than GDB;

(2) if bash is broken, see what other shells
are around (e.g., sh, dash, even zsh) - it
shouldn't be that hard to change any
bash-specifics; and

(3) is bash really required to install Emacs?

-- 
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
                   - so far: 55 Blogomatic articles -                   

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Emanuel Berg]

Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> writes:

> As someone else noted, I often have to use
> echo to write the proper sources.list in
> a guest because I don't have emacs:
>
>     echo "deb
> http://ftp.ports.debian.org/debian-ports
> unstable main updates" >
> /etc/apt/sources.list

There are many other editors apart from Emacs.
Look for vi(m) and nano, and sed and awk for
noninteractive line editors.

-- 
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
                   - so far: 55 Blogomatic articles -                   

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Phillip Lord]

On Sun, June 26, 2016 10:34 pm, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
>> Okay, so, I think you need to start from the beginning. A short while
>> back, I got the impression that build was crashing during bootstrap,
>> i.e. it was a core dump from temacs. This has nothing to do with emacs'
>> tests, which IIRC are not distributed with emacs source.
>>
>> So, the problem is not "Build Emacs without Lisp" but "Emacs build
>> fails on Debian chroot S390x"?
>>
>> If this is the case, then I think you have either a bug or an
>> unsupported platform. Probably the next best step is to submit a bug
>> report.
>
> I understand it may be unsupported, but that's not very helpful to me.

Yes, it is. If it unsupported, then perhaps it can be made so, and in the
meantime, you know you that know that you are wasting your time.


> I'm trying to find something that works so I can get on with my task at
> hand :)


You still haven't really said what that task is. If you need Emacs and
only emacs, then you or someone has to fix the build. If you need a
general purpose text editor, then try another one that does support your
platform. GNU ed will probably run an it has a much simpler build.

If you need to open some files, replace some stuff and save it, then perl
will probably do better still.

If you want to fix the build, then, I would say that a bug report is a
reasonable place to start.

Phil

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Jeffrey Walton]

>>> Are you on some uncommon platform where you
>>> have to compile everything manually or why
>>> don't you just use the distro's package
>>> manager to install it?
>>
>> Yes. I'm in a Debian QEMU/Chroot for S/390x
>
> S/390x - is that the IBM ESA/390 mainframe of
> the 90s?
>
> Really? You have one at home?

No, I don't have one at home.

Debian carries our software, and they test under S/390x. You can see
some other platforms they test under at https://www.debian.org/ports/.

If you don't like the policy, then I suggest you take it up with the
Debian folks. I'm happy to elide the support because my plate is too
full as it is.

Jeff

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Jeffrey Walton]

> You still haven't really said what that task is. If you need Emacs and
> only emacs, then you or someone has to fix the build. If you need a
> general purpose text editor, then try another one that does support your
> platform. GNU ed will probably run an it has a much simpler build.

My task is to edit files with emacs. I'm not an Emacs expert. I know
it better than Vi, so that's what I use.

I guessed the failed self tests were due to Lisp, but it was only a
guess. I don't use Lisp so I'm happy to test a build without it.

If you don't mind me asking, why do you think I am here trying to
figure out how to work around a broken emacs builds? What do you think
I am trying to do with emacs other than edit files?

Jeff

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Emanuel Berg]

Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> writes:

>> You still haven't really said what that task
>> is. If you need Emacs and only emacs, then
>> you or someone has to fix the build. If you
>> need a general purpose text editor, then try
>> another one that does support your platform.
>> GNU ed will probably run an it has a much
>> simpler build.
>
> My task is to edit files with emacs. I'm not
> an Emacs expert. I know it better than Vi, so
> that's what I use.

Yes, but why do you want to do it on a 26 year
old mainframe that doesn't seem to support it?

I mean, yeah, it is a cool project. But if it
is a cool project, there is no reason to be
frustrated about it. Solve it all in due
time...

> If you don't like the policy, then I suggest
> you take it up with the Debian folks.
> I'm happy to elide the support because my
> plate is too full as it is.

I run Emacs on my Raspberry Pi, thank you,
which runs Raspbian (a Debian derivative) -
here, installing Emacs is just a matter of

    $ sudo aptitude install emacs24

If you are on a Debian fork as well, did you
try that?

If you aren't, get the Emacs source from the
web and install it manually.

If it doesn't work, what error message do you
get? Post it here as well as in the S/390
groups and see what happens, is what I would
do, for sure!

> I guessed the failed self tests were due to
> Lisp, but it was only a guess. I don't use
> Lisp so I'm happy to test a build without it.

Again, there is no Emacs without Lisp. E.g., if
you do `C-x C-f' for `find-file' this is
a defun on line 1420 in

    /usr/share/emacs/24.4/lisp/files.el.gz

which is LISP! (gzipped Elisp, to be exact)

There is no "I use Emacs but not Lisp"!

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Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 7:25 PM, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:
> Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>> You still haven't really said what that task
>>> is. If you need Emacs and only emacs, then
>>> you or someone has to fix the build. If you
>>> need a general purpose text editor, then try
>>> another one that does support your platform.
>>> GNU ed will probably run an it has a much
>>> simpler build.
>>
>> My task is to edit files with emacs. I'm not
>> an Emacs expert. I know it better than Vi, so
>> that's what I use.
>
> Yes, but why do you want to do it on a 26 year
> old mainframe that doesn't seem to support it?
>
> I mean, yeah, it is a cool project. But if it
> is a cool project, there is no reason to be
> frustrated about it. Solve it all in due
> time...

We seem to be suffering a disconnect. I don't do it because its cool.
I do it to ensure we don't receive bug reports from out package
maintainer, László Böszörményi.

>> If you don't like the policy, then I suggest
>> you take it up with the Debian folks.
>> I'm happy to elide the support because my
>> plate is too full as it is.
>
> I run Emacs on my Raspberry Pi, thank you,
> which runs Raspbian (a Debian derivative) -
> here, installing Emacs is just a matter of
>
>     $ sudo aptitude install emacs24

Again, another disconnect. I suggest you try that in the environment.

Jeff

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Emanuel Berg]

Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> writes:

> I don't do it because its cool. I do it to
> ensure we don't receive bug reports from out
> package maintainer, László Böszörményi.

Okaay... (?)

> I suggest you try that in the environment.

So first you ask a question which is all but
impossible to understand, how to install Emacs
without LISP; then it turns out you do it on an
IBM mainframe from the 90s for which there is
no support, no editors, no debugger, and even
the shell is broke; finally, when I ask why in
Gods name anyone would do that you suggest *I*
do it?

OK: I don't do it because I don't have such
a system, and a don't see any gain spending
hours on something I already have up and
running on my R-Pi!

But if I did it, I would consider it a cool
project and I wouldn't be frustrated about it.

And, I would get on the S/390 newsgroups and
mailing lists!

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Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Phillip Lord]

On Sun, June 26, 2016 11:50 pm, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
>> You still haven't really said what that task is. If you need Emacs and
>> only emacs, then you or someone has to fix the build. If you need a
>> general purpose text editor, then try another one that does support
>> your platform. GNU ed will probably run an it has a much simpler build.
>
> My task is to edit files with emacs. I'm not an Emacs expert. I know
> it better than Vi, so that's what I use.
>
> I guessed the failed self tests were due to Lisp, but it was only a
> guess.

If by "failed self-tests" you mean that you got a core dump from temacs,
then please say that. temacs is nothing to do with testing.


> I don't use Lisp so I'm happy to test a build without it.

Lisp is not an extension language for Emacs. It's the language that a very
significant part of the functionality of Emacs is implemented in.


> If you don't mind me asking, why do you think I am here trying to
> figure out how to work around a broken emacs builds? What do you think
> I am trying to do with emacs other than edit files?

I don't know. When trying to debug an issue that you cannot replicate, I
never found it sensible to make assumptions; it's easier just to ask. In
your case, the subject line "Build Emacs without Lisp" doesn't really make
sense to me, which means asking is even more important.

Phil

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Emanuel Berg]

"Phillip Lord" <phillip.lord@russet.org.uk>
writes:

> Lisp is not an extension language for Emacs.
> It's the language that a very significant
> part of the functionality of Emacs is
> implemented in.

Is it fair to say it is both?

    "I am the beginning, the end, the one who
    is many" (First Contact, 1996)

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Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 5:50:15 PM UTC+5:30, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
>> >> My questions are:
>> >>
>> >>   - Is it possible to build emacs without Lisp? If so, how?
>> >>
>> >>   - Are there other work arounds available for the seg fault?
>> >>
>> >
>> > Taking your subject line literally (ie not the usual way its done today
>> > to suggest emacs = gnu-emacs)
>> > have you seen this list of 'smaller' emacsen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs#Various_Emacs_editors
>> 
>> Thanks, that's a good point. I'm so used to emacs, I grab it with no thought.
>> 
>> Maybe an emacs knock-off is a better solution until we get a working
>> debugger to investigate the issue.
>> 
>
> My first encounter with emacs was 25 years ago -- jove -- pure C
> [Not counting edwin -- pure scheme -- around the same time]
> I'd be surprised if that stuff worked today... 
>
> IOW How much of that list is current... Dunno

edwin still works very nicely; it's distributed with mit-scheme.

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                 http://www.informatimago.com/
“The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a
dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to
keep the man from touching the equipment.” -- Carl Bass CEO Autodesk

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> writes:

>>> The goal is to use Emacs as my text editor.
>>
>> Are you on some uncommon platform where you
>> have to compile everything manually or why
>> don't you just use the distro's package manager
>> to install it?
>
> Yes. I'm in a Debian QEMU/Chroot for S/390x because I don't have
> access to one. Debian tests our package under it via Porter, so I'm
> using their methodology. Also see http://www.debian.org/ports/.
>
> We added Ports testing because Debian was finding bugs under these
> platforms. We are trying to get out in front of things rather than
> playing catch-up.

Emacs defines a virtual machine, and there's some optimized layout done;
You will probably have to revise some header files and add a few #ifdef
for S/390x.  (Have a look at src/lisp.h for a start).

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                 http://www.informatimago.com/
“The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a
dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to
keep the man from touching the equipment.” -- Carl Bass CEO Autodesk

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> writes:

>> You still haven't really said what that task is. If you need Emacs and
>> only emacs, then you or someone has to fix the build. If you need a
>> general purpose text editor, then try another one that does support your
>> platform. GNU ed will probably run an it has a much simpler build.
>
> My task is to edit files with emacs. I'm not an Emacs expert. I know
> it better than Vi, so that's what I use.
>
> I guessed the failed self tests were due to Lisp, but it was only a
> guess. I don't use Lisp so I'm happy to test a build without it.
>
> If you don't mind me asking, why do you think I am here trying to
> figure out how to work around a broken emacs builds? What do you think
> I am trying to do with emacs other than edit files?

Notice that you can edit files remotely with emacs using tramp.
You need a network connection between the computer running emacs and the
computer where the files are stored, and a ssh server on the computer
where the files are stored.  Then you can open files there from here,
using C-x C-f /ssh:USER@COMPUTER:/path/to/the/file RET


-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                 http://www.informatimago.com/
“The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a
dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to
keep the man from touching the equipment.” -- Carl Bass CEO Autodesk

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> writes:

>> You still haven't really said what that task is. If you need Emacs and
>> only emacs, then you or someone has to fix the build. If you need a
>> general purpose text editor, then try another one that does support your
>> platform. GNU ed will probably run an it has a much simpler build.
>
> My task is to edit files with emacs. I'm not an Emacs expert. I know
> it better than Vi, so that's what I use.
>
> I guessed the failed self tests were due to Lisp, but it was only a
> guess. I don't use Lisp so I'm happy to test a build without it.
>
> If you don't mind me asking, why do you think I am here trying to
> figure out how to work around a broken emacs builds? What do you think
> I am trying to do with emacs other than edit files?

Obviously, we thought you were trying to port and debug emacs on S390x
and become an emacs hero.


-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                 http://www.informatimago.com/
“The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a
dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to
keep the man from touching the equipment.” -- Carl Bass CEO Autodesk

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Yes, but why do you want to do it on a 26 year
> old mainframe that doesn't seem to support it?
>
> I mean, yeah, it is a cool project. But if it
> is a cool project, there is no reason to be
> frustrated about it. Solve it all in due
> time...

Yes, running mainframes is too cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45X4VP8CGtk

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                 http://www.informatimago.com/
“The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a
dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to
keep the man from touching the equipment.” -- Carl Bass CEO Autodesk

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Emanuel Berg]

"Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com>
writes:

> Notice that you can edit files remotely with
> emacs using tramp. You need a network
> connection between the computer running emacs
> and the computer where the files are stored,
> and a ssh server on the computer where the
> files are stored. Then you can open files there
> from here, using C-x C-f
> /ssh:USER@COMPUTER:/path/to/the/file RET

If ssh isn't up an alternative is having
another computer nearby and pass files.
It won't be a working environment for daily
care but it sure beats echoing individual lines
to /etc/apt/sources.list ...

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Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Gene]

On Saturday, June 25, 2016 at 9:40:28 AM UTC-4, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> I'm working in a Debian S/390x Chroot (https://www.debian.org/ports/).
> Its a lightweight VM-like command line environment.
> 
> I'm trying to build emacs from sources because the port does not have
> a suitable package available. The features I need are (a) Open file
> (b) Save file (c) Search in buffer and (d) Replace in buffer.

> My questions are:
> 
>   - Is it possible to build emacs without Lisp? If so, how?
> 



As nobody has mentioned it yet, I'll bring up microEmacs
https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=microemacs

If memory serves is uses emacs keybindings to manually do what one would expect, but doesn't have the bloat -- or power -- of elisp.
It was used on Amiga and Atari ST back in the late 80's into the 90s.
If the source code is available it might compile more to your liking.

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[John Mastro]

Gene <gene.sullivan@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, June 25, 2016 at 9:40:28 AM UTC-4, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
>> I'm working in a Debian S/390x Chroot (https://www.debian.org/ports/).
>> Its a lightweight VM-like command line environment.
>>
> As nobody has mentioned it yet, I'll bring up microEmacs
> https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=microemacs
>
> If memory serves is uses emacs keybindings to manually do what one
> would expect, but doesn't have the bloat -- or power -- of elisp. It
> was used on Amiga and Atari ST back in the late 80's into the 90s. If
> the source code is available it might compile more to your liking.

Linus Torvalds somewhat famously uses a microemacs variant. I don't know
which if any distributions package it (I believe there are several
"microemacs"), but the source is available from kernel.org[1].

[1]: https://git.kernel.org/cgit/editors/uemacs/uemacs.git

        John

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Bob Proulx]

Gene wrote:
> As nobody has mentioned it yet, I'll bring up microEmacs
> https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=microemacs
> 
> If memory serves is uses emacs keybindings to manually do what one
> would expect, but doesn't have the bloat -- or power -- of elisp.
> It was used on Amiga and Atari ST back in the late 80's into the 90s.
> If the source code is available it might compile more to your liking.

I am very happy that you mentioned MicroEMACS.  It was actually
MicroEMACS that introduced me to Emacs originally.  I had heard good
things about it.  As was typical then I downloaded the source and
compiled it on an HP series 500.  I liked it very much and used it for
a while.  Eventually I moved on to GNU Emacs but MicroEMACS has very
good memories for me.

Bob

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Stefan Monnier]

> [1]: https://git.kernel.org/cgit/editors/uemacs/uemacs.git

There's also GNU Zile (which I use on machines not powerful enough to
run Emacs, such home routers), which is included in Debian (not sure if
it's already in the s390x port, tho).


        Stefan

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Dan Espen]

Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> writes:

>> You still haven't really said what that task is. If you need Emacs and
>> only emacs, then you or someone has to fix the build. If you need a
>> general purpose text editor, then try another one that does support your
>> platform. GNU ed will probably run an it has a much simpler build.
>
> My task is to edit files with emacs. I'm not an Emacs expert. I know
> it better than Vi, so that's what I use.
>
> I guessed the failed self tests were due to Lisp, but it was only a
> guess. I don't use Lisp so I'm happy to test a build without it.
>
> If you don't mind me asking, why do you think I am here trying to
> figure out how to work around a broken emacs builds? What do you think
> I am trying to do with emacs other than edit files?

The link you previously posted bears looking at:

https://www.debian.org/ports/

You are using something seriously misnamed and it's causing confusion:

The port is described as:

s390 (S/390 and zSeries) First officially released with Debian 3.0.
This is a port to IBM S/390 servers.

z/Series hasn't been called S/390 in ages.
We should all assume you are running Debian on a current
zSeries machine with a current z/OS release.

If so, it appears you want to run Emacs on the mainframe to
edit some of the files on the mainframe.

You don't explain where you wish Emacs to open a window.
Terminals are usually not directly connected to a z/Series
machine.  I guess we can assume you plan to telnet/rlogin/ssh
from a Windows terminal (perhaps Putty?).  That would be
Emacs with TTY support.

You are also not clear about which mainframe files you wish
to access.  If you stick to the Debian files (names starting with "/",
you should be okay with that part.  z/OS native files will be
a problem with Emacs, you really need to FTP the file to
get z/OS fixed and variable length records in a format Emacs
can deal with.

You should enable core dumps:

ulimit -c unlimited

run the build again and see if you get a core file.

Then run:

dbx path-to-temacs path-to-core-file

I know you said the debugger doesn't work, but sometimes
to solve one problem, you have to solve another.

If I've guessed wrong on what you are trying to do,
please try to give relevant, complete descriptions.

-- 
Dan Espen

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Emanuel Berg]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
writes:

> There's also GNU Zile (which I use on
> machines not powerful enough to run Emacs,
> such home routers), which is included in
> Debian (not sure if it's already in the s390x
> port, tho).

From /usr/share/doc/zile/FAQ.gz

    2.1 What does `Zile' mean?

        It stands for `Zile Is Lossy Emacs'.
        It is just another recursive acronym
        like `GNU'. The reason that it's not
        written in all caps is because Emacs
        (which is also an acronym)
        isn't either.

    2.2 Why another clone of Emacs? Why not
        just use Emacs?

        Zile is a small, portable Emacs for
        systems and situations in which Emacs
        would be unsuitable, including small
        systems and quick editing sessions.

    2.4 I like the xyz function of Emacs but
        it's not in Zile!

        Zile was written to be small but fast
        and powerful enough.

        In general, if you need something more
        powerful, use Emacs. You could also try
        Jed, which emulates Emacs, is not much
        bigger than Zile, and has syntax
        highlighting, a macro language and more
        ...

Jed is also in the Debian repos, by the way.

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Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[klaus schilling]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
> writes:
>
>> There's also GNU Zile (which I use on
>> machines not powerful enough to run Emacs,
>> such home routers), which is included in
>> Debian (not sure if it's already in the s390x
>> port, tho).
>
>>From /usr/share/doc/zile/FAQ.gz
>
>     2.1 What does `Zile' mean?
>


>         It stands for `Zile Is Lossy Emacs'.

This has changed recently. Now Zile expands to  Zile implements lua
editors", as it is linked with lua libraries.


greetings,

Klaus Schilling

Re: Build Emacs without Lisp?

[Emanuel Berg]

klaus schilling <schilling.klaus@web.de>
writes:

>> From /usr/share/doc/zile/FAQ.gz 2.1 What
>> does `Zile' mean?
>>
>>     It stands for `Zile Is Lossy Emacs'.
>
> This has changed recently. Now Zile expands
> to Zile implements lua editors", as it is
> linked with lua libraries.

Mine is from the Raspbian Jessie repos so
either the change is more recent than that, or
someone forgot to edit the FAQ...

Anyhow, I think "Lossy Emacs" was better :)

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