From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#73812: 30.0.91; ERC 5.6.0.30.1: Customizing erc-modules loads ERC when starting Emacs Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 10:14:44 +0300 Message-ID: <86bjzhopaz.fsf__6767.1788435959$1729235773$gmane$org@gnu.org> References: <87o73mgjk3.fsf@neverwas.me> <865xptsh6f.fsf@gnu.org> <87h69ddz5l.fsf@neverwas.me> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10386"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: 73812@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-erc@gnu.org To: "J.P." Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 18 09:16:06 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1t1hDQ-0002Wh-Tg for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 18 Oct 2024 09:16:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1t1hDE-0001Wt-9Z; Fri, 18 Oct 2024 03:15:52 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1t1hD2-0001Vz-Ih for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 18 Oct 2024 03:15:40 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:5::43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1t1hD2-00029r-8n for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 18 Oct 2024 03:15:40 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=debbugs.gnu.org; s=debbugs-gnu-org; h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:To:Subject; bh=QHdMGpQ+wF324UfhF1Ybq5MHGrpAE9hQobyU2EeXiNM=; b=OQrs4svOOxuq2gByLn1Wzw+YodYzXzrTaRBP8lpwM3IbxHzrrvgvBaIqrjS0Eeyz3U89mSrXw1yydepWXdTvhuyhnsBWeY5wRK6FaYgknrY3xEar9jhglOqS2nerE2RoW/UJaTmec6+AEIbPg9HUR7d3qQMr8AqkbUSV4AFE5uzk61HjE/wxZlZemOHxnkDxfssWbDWsFLU/LnNuv+pNk3JsHYKoSQlJS2ojBM8WSF4YO//epESUwU5YYxyDPQGW5ppKU/iwnfRZaJoVf5Y6t6lsE8FEh6LUApyE23C5AJef8tggyWl5oBngI/dTmB8ir2VGGLHUDWv1GhbYJR6FDw==; Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t1hDN-0007Wt-PZ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 18 Oct 2024 03:16:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 07:16:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 73812 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch Original-Received: via spool by 73812-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B73812.172923571528533 (code B ref 73812); Fri, 18 Oct 2024 07:16:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 73812) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Oct 2024 07:15:15 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36843 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t1hCd-0007Q9-4w for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 18 Oct 2024 03:15:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37084) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1t1hCb-0007Px-M6 for 73812@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 18 Oct 2024 03:15:14 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1t1hCA-0001rb-5G; Fri, 18 Oct 2024 03:14:46 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=QHdMGpQ+wF324UfhF1Ybq5MHGrpAE9hQobyU2EeXiNM=; b=ANu/F4NcY3VQ j13F/7JSetnE6mkjWTLKtvnZXIl5CY32n8GNr6nu/so2SiPKdJmTfowxcPFUnay1Ny2lWt2tl7h1v yWnSE8QCAneAgneOHedGnhjGPD2/ys37nrG1tchI85CHM04zjJItQLl0bKSOmSJADwm+tVLkKQv7k Xqv6eXcEbgSbsOKVpS2jW/SyDN6xbplzQ55dTTbyZ++A2xpYI8X316xrEBFEGW0G6O2F8XsssQzPF zAiyLUzNIhH5jtr8htQcGpnq8SSYq8fLza7WxhpkXGh590QwZFvQXVR3IzT18Elw9q3Q7Vf3ARWjJ Q7QX+KUmkeFyBDSEgYTDPg==; In-Reply-To: <87h69ddz5l.fsf@neverwas.me> (jp@neverwas.me) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:293768 Archived-At: > From: "J.P." > Cc: 73812@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-erc@gnu.org > Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 11:00:38 -0700 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > Are we sure this doesn't break any customization scenarios? > > The worst case is probably someone unaware of the implicit loading who > recently added code referring to symbols defined in erc.el after an > Emacs-managed `custom-set-variables' form in their `custom-file' (or a > `:custom' section in a `use-package' declaration). These customizations > would necessarily have to contain an entry for `erc-modules', but this > is perhaps the most common ERC customization. However, the user would > have to be running the pre-release or master. > > > Why was this line added in the first place? > > The line was initially added in a misguided attempt to allow new users > unfamiliar with Emacs to run M-x customize-option RET erc-modules RET > without first having to run M-: (require 'erc) RET. The commit log message says: * lisp/erc/erc.el (erc-modules): Make good on decades old language in info node "(erc) Modules" by ensuring `customize-option' can find this option before its containing library is loaded. Like `gnus-select-method', this option serves as an entry point for configuring the application and is presented that way in tutorials and library front matter. Moreover, it can't be reasonably autoloaded in the traditional way because of its many dependencies and large textual footprint. So there was some reasonable rationale to this change. > > And why is it urgent to remove it before Emacs 30 is released? > > ERC has a great many symbols, which people won't want to see in > completion tables, etc. Longtime ERC users trying Emacs 30 for the first > time may find ERC loading whenever they start Emacs, which may not be > desirable in all Emacs sessions. And since, as mentioned, `erc-modules' > is likely among the most commonly customized of ERC's options, this may > also affect non-ERC users who perhaps only tried it once many years ago > or even folks using a shared config containing such a customization. For > these reasons, I suspect we'll start noticing ERC-related pollution in > the automated evidence collection for bug reports filed with M-x > report-emacs-bug RET once Emacs 30 goes mainstream. All in all, I'd prefer to leave this alone in Emacs 30. We have time to try reverting this on master and seeing whether it's a net win or a net loss, given the past history of the issue. (AFAIU, if you remove this line, some change is pertinent in the manual?) Thanks.