From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Menubar on text only terminals Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 09:25:15 +0200 Message-ID: <86abxrck6c.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> References: <17934.2504.477668.354102@farnswood.snap.net.nz> <17934.54358.129732.694345@farnswood.snap.net.nz> <20070402021343.GA2989@kobe.laptop> <17936.36075.282286.535939@farnswood.snap.net.nz> <20070402065536.GA4779@kobe.laptop> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1175498727 13331 80.91.229.12 (2 Apr 2007 07:25:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 07:25:27 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Nick Roberts , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Giorgos Keramidas Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 02 09:25:25 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HYGuq-0008Be-AL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 02 Apr 2007 09:25:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HYGxq-0001Wq-Cq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 02 Apr 2007 03:28:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HYGxn-0001Wk-B6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Apr 2007 03:28:27 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HYGxm-0001WY-KI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Apr 2007 03:28:27 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HYGxm-0001WV-Et for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Apr 2007 03:28:26 -0400 Original-Received: from pc3.berlin.powerweb.de ([62.67.228.11]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1HYGul-0007mq-8j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Apr 2007 03:25:19 -0400 Original-Received: from quinscape.de (pd95b0fdb.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.91.15.219]) by pc3.berlin.powerweb.de (8.9.3p3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01338 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:25:15 +0200 X-Delivered-To: Original-Received: (qmail 16502 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2007 07:25:15 -0000 Original-Received: from unknown (HELO lola.quinscape.zz) ([10.0.3.43]) (envelope-sender ) by ns.quinscape.de (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 2 Apr 2007 07:25:15 -0000 Original-Received: by lola.quinscape.zz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 61AFAC34AA; Mon, 2 Apr 2007 09:25:15 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <20070402065536.GA4779@kobe.laptop> (Giorgos Keramidas's message of "Mon\, 2 Apr 2007 09\:55\:36 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-kernel: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:68924 Archived-At: Giorgos Keramidas writes: > On 2007-04-02 16:56, Nick Roberts wrote: >>>> With tmm, sub-menus have to be navigated through completions >>>> lists, which some find inconvenient. Toolbars don't have >>>> that extra complexity. I'm just trying to say that toolbars >>>> and text terminals (with use of the mouse) are a more natural >>>> fit. >>> >>> That's kind of debatable. Programs like the text-mode elinks >>> web browser work quite nicely with a text mode menubar. The >>> menu bar of Emacs works in a different way than the elinks >>> menu bar, but I don't see why this makes it less useful than >>> the toolbar. >> >> Maybe for the reason I just gave? > > That's where the 'debatable' part fits. Some users may find it > more useful to use completions to access the menu, rather than > try to hit a particular menu entry with a mouse pointer. Others > may, obviously, disagree. > >> I'm not familiar with Elinks but if it works as well as you >> say, perhaps, ATR it would a good idea to redesign Emacs text >> mode menubar along the same lines. > > This is a good idea, IMHO. > > Maybe we can aim for making something like this available for > Emacs 23, and make it also possible to switch between two 'modes' > for accessing the menu. The current completion-based mode, and > something that resembles elinks :) tmm is not really helpful in most cases since it requires refocusing one's attention all the time. It is possible that it may work better with screen readers and/or Emacspeak, but I doubt it. I think I remember someone blind actually being using X11 since the screen readers get along with it reasonably well. I think that the MSDOS port has a more traditional text menu (which closely resembles the graphical menus by appearing in-place). It would probably be better to port that functionality to text terminals in general before thinking about what to do with toolbars: I don't think that many people consider tmm a good idea. And it certainly is a good hint that for MSDOS, one of the few console-only parts, someone went to the pain to implement something else. -- David Kastrup