From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Change terminology to better align =?utf-8?Q?users=E2=80=99?= experience with modern GUIs Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 19:37:58 +0200 Message-ID: <86a7cq1761.fsf@zoho.eu> References: <58E90D68-5CE4-425F-BB5F-07533665ADC0@icloud.com> <20190723104448.GD27308@tuxteam.de> <83pnm0q0a7.fsf@gnu.org> <20190723161556.GA11428@tuxteam.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="177122"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1 (gnu/linux) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 03 19:38:17 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1htxyy-000jxT-M3 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 19:38:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41184 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1htxyx-0007YQ-Ct for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 13:38:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51510) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1htxyq-0007Y6-9t for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 13:38:09 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1htxyp-0000uQ-32 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 13:38:08 -0400 Original-Received: from 195-159-176-226.customer.powertech.no ([195.159.176.226]:44956 helo=blaine.gmane.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1htxyo-0000rp-T2 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 13:38:07 -0400 Original-Received: from list by blaine.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1htxym-000jjG-AG for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 19:38:04 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Cancel-Lock: sha1:cpCMv8m788wL0uSJ4zEad7fEfyc= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 195.159.176.226 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:121303 Archived-At: tomas wrote: > Thanks for the clarifications, Eli. Still, > I feel that someone "entering" this world > might be a bit... lost. [Note: The last paragraph is the interesting part of this post! And not only because it is about me :) ] First, I think people who come to a piece of software like ours aren't beginners or are lacking in self-confidence when it comes to computers or learning new things in general. Second, speaking even more broadly, I think that changing small details "here" won't bring about huge changes "there". If people aren't coming to us, it doesn't matter if a window is called a frame, and a pane is called a window. Changing that won't make a difference, much like changing the color of a sign above a derailed business won't make customers suddenly line up the pavement. Why people came to the software at one time, and why they don't do it now, if that indeed is the case, is a better question, and I admit I don't even have an educated guess. I grew up with computers from when my age consisted of a single digit, and they all had GUIs, the first computer I ever saw was a Mac Plus - with no fan and no HDD, and 800 KB floppies which contained the OS as well as any other software - not that there were a lot, back then, at least not for the Mac. So while it didn't have much, the OS, Finder, was a GUI one. So it was even then all about GUIs and when I started programming, by instinct, it was with Visual Basic 5.0, so it was all GUIs there as well! But when I started programming in a more methodic way (altho it was still by instinct to a large degree, I'd now say), by that time I really didn't want anything to do with GUIs - buttons, menus, the mouse... I considered that - in general, because there are exceptions like web browsing, GISs, FPSs, and so one - I considered that to be using a computer at a lower level, at the level of the consumer oriented masses, that only cared for services, multimedia, and games, not the computer itself, if you will. Also, I wanted an editor which I could tweak in exactly the way I liked. All this came together with Emacs. When I came here in particular, to what I now call gmane.emacs.help, it felt like everyone was older and more experienced than me. Now, I don't know, maybe it just felt that way and there were actually a lot of people coming to the Emacs world about that time. Probably! Also, I don't know if their reasons were the same as mine. Because if several people came around then, and several people came for the same reasons, that'd mean, that those reason don't hold any appeal to today's folks, and that's why they aren't coming. And if they don't, well all the more reason to believe that yeah, changing frame to window and window to pane won't change anything from that side'a things. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 https://dataswamp.org/~incal