From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Andy Moreton Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 23:13:14 +0100 Message-ID: <868tzpbhfp.fsf@gmail.com> References: <874mai4qhz.fsf@gnus.org> <83a8kao624.fsf@gnu.org> <270c962c-11c4-4b0c-9d62-211cbc6f9f47@default> <87y47t256w.fsf@gnus.org> <87wpndmvo2.fsf@gmx.de> <86y47qdx3r.fsf@gmail.com> <834madkggg.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1462400055 10624 80.91.229.3 (4 May 2016 22:14:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 22:14:15 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu May 05 00:14:03 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ay53T-0004rf-8i for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 00:14:03 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50546 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay53P-0002A6-F5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 18:13:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46897) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay53G-0001w1-Mf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 18:13:56 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay534-0000zZ-VO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 18:13:45 -0400 Original-Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:58252) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay534-0000tC-PH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 18:13:38 -0400 Original-Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ay52t-0004Wn-LK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 00:13:27 +0200 Original-Received: from 82-69-64-228.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk ([82.69.64.228]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 May 2016 00:13:27 +0200 Original-Received: from andrewjmoreton by 82-69-64-228.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 05 May 2016 00:13:27 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 50 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 82-69-64-228.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.93 (windows-nt) Cancel-Lock: sha1:1jrmrp1r6w3WNv2ZMBWw6S8vijA= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:203590 Archived-At: On Wed 04 May 2016, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Andy Moreton >> Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 09:51:52 +0100 >> >> On Tue 03 May 2016, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> >> > AFAIK ls-lisp is implemented with functions that are also handled by >> > Tramp, so it should work just as well. >> >> Except for platforms where ls-lisp does not understand the underlying >> file system in the same way as the external tool. > > ls-lisp understands the underlying filesystem as well as Emacs does. > >> For example, on windows the permissions from ls-lisp are fairly >> meaningless > > No, they are not meaningless. I wonder why you say that. > >> and do not match what is reported from MSYS, MSYS2 or Cygwin >> versions of ls > > Why should they match? Cygwin emulates Posix user/group/world > permissions using NTFS security features, and in particular encodes > the Posix attribute bits in Windows ACEs using its own private scheme. > There's no reason to expect native calls to match that scheme. The scheme is publically documented, and closely follows the mappings previously used by the Interix (aka Services for Unix) subsystem. The code is GPL, so I don;t understand why you think this is private. >> Please keep things the way they are. > > Not sure why do you say that. If you mean that you'd like to have use > Cygwin/MSYS 'ls' from a native Emacs, then I don't recommend that, due > to the above-mentioned mismatches. You could have a file listed as > inaccessible, which actually is, or vice versa. Why is that a good > idea? While it is simpler to use a homogenous environment, there are significant uses of mixed environments, where the emacs binary and the platform differ in their view of the filesystem. It's ok to change the default implementation to prefer using an emacs internal implementation rather than an external program, but the proposal was to remove use of external programs, which would make emacs less useful. AndyM