From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Installing cond* in core Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2024 08:09:28 +0200 Message-ID: <868r4a6lbb.fsf@gnu.org> References: Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="39924"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: stefankangas@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 28 07:10:18 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rTyN0-000A9C-4m for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 07:10:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rTyMG-0000S3-5b; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 01:09:32 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rTyMF-0000Rv-3c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 01:09:31 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rTyME-0001SO-9t; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 01:09:30 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=4v0hAOUzQr115cBeYLZZikgUe+VY7YK6aVpfn3B11so=; b=dHkJRUxUqPZP NaLQVrduivzPe4LovNQRUBYsp9/Csf5A3MmqCbV+TmOFYzw6SbByAE12X+0Lv7mBrWv2qDFH4Thf5 rrPUpbm/FsgXsRQJWng+rvR0CYL7QyH4siVn8D5BdU4Cp0r7ugCsFmwMilECfvmXVBF34l1AUaELz C14yYTeO5v2O8txDJOemldqOf2MxZ2x+Hm6e9521FvA0i0Clk1ER8JlNjzxUOmV956e4X4/nYN06K HN02z7q92aT11+u03eFKmL8ibS/lD9sxhFpBSkUGoLd7XPJgE8+Qn5+f3ohOun1F3GVOwq9KEbmnc fICY90fm8oDTiAqrZhpA9g==; In-Reply-To: (message from Alan Mackenzie on Sat, 27 Jan 2024 23:33:52 +0000) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:315527 Archived-At: > Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2024 23:33:52 +0000 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Alan Mackenzie > > Can you further confirm that there will be no technical advantages given > to pcase over cond*? This remains to be seen. Only actual usage of cond* and experience we gain from that will allow us to realize the relative merits and demerits of each one of the macros. > In particular, that condstar.el will be in lisp/emacs-lisp That's probably a good place, yes. > and that it will be available from early mid-bootstrap onwards, just > as pcase is? Only if really needed. I object in general to preloading anything that is not actually needed, and for that reason I will keep an eye on uses of cond* in preloaded files, with the purpose of avoiding that as much as possible, so that we don't have to preload another package unless we must. > On this point, it's worth noting that pcase was silently slipped into > Emacs in the dead of night without any public discussion, and was then > widely proliferated through working code, again without discussion. Please drop this attitude: it is not useful. In Emacs development, stuff is routinely "slipped into Emacs in the dead of the night without any public discussion", for better and for worse. I'm sure that if you examine the logs of your own changes, you will see many examples of that; I know I see that in mine and in most other's. E.g., I installed a user-facing change just yesterday without asking anyone's opinion. This is how Emacs is developed for decades, and we should by now realize that this is our strength, although it does have known downsides. The stuff that goes into the repository is sent to a special mailing list, so people who want to be aware of things "slipping in the dead of night" have ample opportunity to pay attention and holler.