From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Newbie Info Pages Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 18:44:27 +0300 Message-ID: <867cbab7z8.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87r09owat8.fsf@gmail.com> <289AFFBC-16A4-4728-B702-D99045B6D7FF@summerstar.me> <86a5g6be5n.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="11743"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: rms@gnu.org, suhailsingh247@gmail.com, corwin@bru.st, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Summer Emacs Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 17 17:45:48 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sqaOh-0002sZ-Nt for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2024 17:45:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sqaNv-00014I-AP; Tue, 17 Sep 2024 11:44:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sqaNp-00013f-Ut for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2024 11:44:54 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sqaNo-0001In-MS; Tue, 17 Sep 2024 11:44:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=R/Xa95tUUM9kC8NUiXyaG+AvA8p/JI0Pq9/waCFmOhU=; b=BaQBy0EwAx+XntFijlz/ jihyIh+LuG4HTI27Y9OwIfy8WBqtr/aCoACe7XX3N6iXNOcgKzD0EBD3WyqcUumf4MAnbtVJLSSSi aKoRrgGK6dhVn5JsHOnndMsFqRul/7wwbdwNdYFjyAuiZ3wFpCgSfiUGe7A2bRqiOUZBFIKS3utXO 1JTSJ5LFLFlXLNrUv19YrGEQ8X+fyzuMIJvFkXDt4ZJT3khpG/YgCB9U729nbmJL+HM9b8Km+3EHY 4jWxnJe82j0Uvsz0Z5l9PnsFgbYyoCtzKHic9UJnZuJGZ0ZXB5FR7Q9GsNPQ4q0yeQ3oGHg7YzZTR 3J3jYnhvG+NGMA==; In-Reply-To: (message from Summer Emacs on Tue, 17 Sep 2024 16:12:17 +0200) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:323699 Archived-At: > From: Summer Emacs > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 16:12:17 +0200 > Cc: rms@gnu.org, > suhailsingh247@gmail.com, > corwin@bru.st, > emacs-devel@gnu.org > > 1) My proposal is for new people to have a landing set of pages to click through, explaining things > in a clear and easy way for them to understand without the instant introduction of concepts which > are alien to them. I think the help files are a great thing, but they are overwhelming for new > people. I know this because I’ve shown it to people in my circles who don’t know much of anything > about how to use a computer, but still use applications such as Word or Pages to type up things > for work/classes. They couldn’t understand the first thing about the help pages. > > I think Richard asked about the difference between what you propose > and the existing Emacs tutorial (which can be read by typing "C-h t"). > The tutorial is not what you call "help files", and is written in a > different style and with different goals in mind. > > Or are you saying that the tutorial is also overwhelming, in > particular due to introducing too many alien concepts? If so, that > might be worth a separate discussion, because the tutorial is not > supposed to be hard to read and understand. > > I did mention the tutorial but I said I think it’s fantastic. I was speaking about the other help files in general. > Such as clicking on the “Emacs guided tour” - it’s very non-newbie friendly. It’s a great resource but I think we > need something better for brand new users who don’t have a coding background. OK, but then Richard's question still stands, and it would be good to hear your view on the difference between what you propose and the tutorial. Because I could think about a few follow-up questions, such as: . can we extend the tutorial with the information you would like to have in the document you propose? . maybe make what you propose to be "tutorial, part2"? . or how about a tutorial whose audience is non-programmers? etc.