From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: guided tour suggestions Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:37:47 +0200 Message-ID: <866459kfuc.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> References: <87645ai4cl.fsf@phil.mit.edu> <85d4zi6jdo.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <18049.65021.594788.317299@kahikatea.snap.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1182929881 11721 80.91.229.12 (27 Jun 2007 07:38:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 07:38:01 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Phil Sung , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Nick Roberts Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 27 09:38:00 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1I3S68-0005pe-Gs for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:37:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I3S68-0003Vn-4W for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 03:37:56 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1I3S63-0003VJ-Cu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 03:37:51 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1I3S63-0003V6-0k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 03:37:51 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I3S62-0003V3-HX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 03:37:50 -0400 Original-Received: from pc3.berlin.powerweb.de ([62.67.228.11]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1I3S61-0001FQ-Iz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 03:37:50 -0400 Original-Received: from quinscape.de (dslnet.212-29-44.ip210.dokom.de [212.29.44.210] (may be forged)) by pc3.berlin.powerweb.de (8.9.3p3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20425 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:37:47 +0200 X-Delivered-To: Original-Received: (qmail 3564 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2007 07:37:47 -0000 Original-Received: from unknown (HELO lola.quinscape.zz) ([10.0.3.43]) (envelope-sender ) by ns.quinscape.de (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 27 Jun 2007 07:37:47 -0000 Original-Received: by lola.quinscape.zz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C29978F832; Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:37:47 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <18049.65021.594788.317299@kahikatea.snap.net.nz> (Nick Roberts's message of "Wed\, 27 Jun 2007 18\:04\:45 +1200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/23.0.51 (gnu/linux) X-detected-kernel: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:73914 Archived-At: Nick Roberts writes: > > > Again, the draft is at: > > > > > > > > > If no one objects, I will ask the webmasters to replace the version > > > on gnu.org with this soon. > > > > I just took a look at it: Ugh! This is supposed to _advertise_ Emacs, > > and I have enough of a fight convincing people that Emacs has made the > > step into the twenty-first century. The guided tour is completely > > unsuitable for that... > > There have been many opportunities to comment on the guided tour > before. I have confused the discussion about it with a slide show in PDF format (a different project also discussed here, which I glanced at). So I did not actually see the guided tour in the context of this discussion, but only when I got into some fight in comp.emacs where somebody steadfastly (from decade-old short exposure, it would seem) claimed that Emacs was a tty application without any useful help or GUI features. So I looked for screenshots from off the main page of Emacs. Apart from the guided tour (which actually rather proved than disproved the original poster's point), I came up with a blank. I had to refer to the screenshots of AUCTeX instead. Now this complete absence of any useful screenshots or demo material (the main Emacs page contains not a single screenshot but refers to the tour at the top) is not the fault of the tour: it is filling a complete void here. Nevertheless, I consider it a mistake to have made the screenshots with what appears like emacs --barebones (or what it was called). > Some of your comments might be legitimate but unfortunately, as > usual, your manner is highly antagonistic and counterproductive to > the fragile spirit of co-operation. Whatever. In the current form, I feel myself unable to refer people to the guided tour as an exposition to Emacs _unless_ they have already installed Emacs and are planning on using the tour as a _tutorial_. But as an exposition, a tour which restricts its demonstration of human/Emacs interaction to emacs -nw (and even emacs -nw would offer menus) is not encouraging. Even if one does not want to work on the basics of the tour itself, the screenshots (which are the only ones reachable from the main Emacs page) should rather reflect what a new user will be working with, namely emacs -Q. After all, we have fought manmonths of time over the best options and look to present to beginners by default. Why not show the result of all that work? -- David Kastrup