Re: what is the important uses of emacs lisp?

Re: what is the important uses of emacs lisp?

[Michael Ekstrand]

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First, please put your question in the body of the message.  It makes
reading and replying easier.

Now, to attempt to answer your question: everything.  Emacs Lisp is used
for extending, customizing, and implementing Emacs.  Most of Emacs
itself is written in Emacs Lisp.  Emacs users use Emacs Lisp to
customize their Emacs (setting variables and writing functions in their
.emacs file, typically) and add new features to it.  Software developers
use Emacs Lisp to write new packages adding additional features and
capabilities to Emacs.

- Michael

-- 
mouse, n: A device for pointing at the xterm in which you want to type.
Confused by the strange files?  I cryptographically sign my messages.
For more information see <http://www.elehack.net/resources/gpg>.

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Re: what is the important uses of emacs lisp?

[Evans Winner]

Michael Ekstrand <michael@elehack.net> writes:

    Now, to attempt to answer your question: everything.
    Emacs Lisp is used for extending, customizing, and
    implementing Emacs.  Most of Emacs itself is written in
    Emacs Lisp.  Emacs users use Emacs Lisp to customize
    their Emacs (setting variables and writing functions in
    their .emacs file, typically) and add new features to
    it.  Software developers use Emacs Lisp to write new
    packages adding additional features and capabilities to
    Emacs.
 
But seriously folks, why, why, oh why is Emacs so rare in
this regard?  I mean, maybe I'm just another Emacs religious
nut, but I just can't fathom why anyone wants their software
to be exclusively mouse-driven, rigid, inflexible,
un-extensible, un-customizable, un-self-documenting, non
language-based, etc.  I really am surprised sometimes that
the whole lisp machine concept never took off.  I mean, I'm
not really surprised -- after all, originally most people
who could benefit from PCs knew nothing about them and were
understandably intimidated and so they welcomed the whole
point-and-grunt model of machine-human interaction.  But
now?  Sheesh.  Isn't it time for people to start using
computers like intelligent civilized humans?

And just when I thought it couldn't get any worse than the
old Macintosh model of if-it-ain't-got-a-button-
it-ain't-gonna-happen user interface, now everybody wants to
write their user interface in some kind of Frankenstein's
monster of web browser typesetting widgets and ad-hoc
scripting languages and the result is that while at least
the data entry people could really get good with keyboarding
around the green screen crud screens once upon a time, now
even the best of them is reduced to the data throughput
level of a three year old[1].

At least that's how it seems to me.

I'm on a bit of a rampage of late because I just took a new
sysadmin job and found that the IT department policies are
so absurdly strict that I can't even install my choice of
text editors on the PC there.  There is a short (very short)
list of allowed software (almost all of it proprietary, of
course) and I'm just stuck with it.  There I am running a
million-dollar system running (nee) OS/400 and on the front
end I'm stuck with Windows and notepad.exe.  Point...
grunt...  point...  grunt.

I'm so extremely sorry to have wasted everyone's time with
all this ranting... though evidently not sorry enough to
rethink sending it.

Anyway, long live Emacs lisp.

Footnotes: 
[1]  Not that I have anything against the mouse or GUIs; on
the contrary I think they can be very useful.  I just don't
think they are a good substitute for those things... for
which they are not a good substitute... like, er, most user
input, for instance.

Re: what is the important uses of emacs lisp?

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Evans Winner <thorne@timbral.net> writes:

> Michael Ekstrand <michael@elehack.net> writes:
>
>     Now, to attempt to answer your question: everything.
>     Emacs Lisp is used for extending, customizing, and
>     implementing Emacs.  Most of Emacs itself is written in
>     Emacs Lisp.  Emacs users use Emacs Lisp to customize
>     their Emacs (setting variables and writing functions in
>     their .emacs file, typically) and add new features to
>     it.  Software developers use Emacs Lisp to write new
>     packages adding additional features and capabilities to
>     Emacs.
>  
> But seriously folks, why, why, oh why is Emacs so rare in
> this regard?  I mean, maybe I'm just another Emacs religious
> nut, but I just can't fathom why anyone wants their software
> to be exclusively mouse-driven, rigid, inflexible,
> un-extensible, un-customizable, un-self-documenting, non
> language-based, etc.  I really am surprised sometimes that
> the whole lisp machine concept never took off.  I mean, I'm
> not really surprised -- after all, originally most people
> who could benefit from PCs knew nothing about them and were
> understandably intimidated and so they welcomed the whole
> point-and-grunt model of machine-human interaction.  But
> now?  Sheesh.  Isn't it time for people to start using
> computers like intelligent civilized humans?
>
> And just when I thought it couldn't get any worse than the
> old Macintosh model of if-it-ain't-got-a-button-
> it-ain't-gonna-happen user interface, now everybody wants to
> write their user interface in some kind of Frankenstein's
> monster of web browser typesetting widgets and ad-hoc
> scripting languages and the result is that while at least
> the data entry people could really get good with keyboarding
> around the green screen crud screens once upon a time, now
> even the best of them is reduced to the data throughput
> level of a three year old[1].
>
> At least that's how it seems to me.
>
> I'm on a bit of a rampage of late because I just took a new
> sysadmin job and found that the IT department policies are
> so absurdly strict that I can't even install my choice of
> text editors on the PC there.  There is a short (very short)
> list of allowed software (almost all of it proprietary, of
> course) and I'm just stuck with it.  There I am running a
> million-dollar system running (nee) OS/400 and on the front
> end I'm stuck with Windows and notepad.exe.  Point...
> grunt...  point...  grunt.

If you can have a program such as putty.exe authorized, that'd be an
escape route.  Even without putty.exe, IIRC, telnet.exe comes standard
with MS-Windows.  Otherwise, there are ssh-enabled java terminal
emulators running in web browsers... http://www.javassh.org/


> I'm so extremely sorry to have wasted everyone's time with
> all this ranting... though evidently not sorry enough to
> rethink sending it.

That's ok, to share the feeling. ;-)


> Anyway, long live Emacs lisp.
>
> Footnotes: 
> [1]  Not that I have anything against the mouse or GUIs; on
> the contrary I think they can be very useful.  I just don't
> think they are a good substitute for those things... for
> which they are not a good substitute... like, er, most user
> input, for instance.


-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

"I have challenged the entire quality assurance team to a Bat-Leth
contest.  They will not concern us again."

Re: what is the important uses of emacs lisp?

[stan]

Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
> Evans Winner <thorne@timbral.net> writes:
>
>> Michael Ekstrand <michael@elehack.net> writes:

< well done rant snipped> 

>> I'm on a bit of a rampage of late because I just took a new
>> sysadmin job and found that the IT department policies are
>> so absurdly strict that I can't even install my choice of
>> text editors on the PC there.  There is a short (very short)
>> list of allowed software (almost all of it proprietary, of
>> course) and I'm just stuck with it.  There I am running a
>> million-dollar system running (nee) OS/400 and on the front
>> end I'm stuck with Windows and notepad.exe.  Point...
>> grunt...  point...  grunt.
>
> If you can have a program such as putty.exe authorized, that'd be an
> escape route.  Even without putty.exe, IIRC, telnet.exe comes standard
> with MS-Windows.  Otherwise, there are ssh-enabled java terminal
> emulators running in web browsers... http://www.javassh.org/

Unfortunately in many cases IT departments are unwilling or incapable of
distinguishing between people who search for the "any" key and kernel
hackers. Consequently the level of nonesense can and does achieve scary
levels.

>> I'm so extremely sorry to have wasted everyone's time with
>> all this ranting... though evidently not sorry enough to
>> rethink sending it.
>
> That's ok, to share the feeling. ;-)

I'll second the OK, and point out this rant has more meat than many
posts on usenet.  I don't know if it will help but there are entire
newgroups that never rise to the level of your article. A mouse does
have uses. Mine has a light on it that's just about perfect when stuff
falls behind the monitor.

John Dvorak once repeated a story about a service call from a woman
having problems with her computer. She couldn't get it to start. As the
story goes, after awhile the tech discovered the woman stepping on the
mouse just like she did with the pedal on her sewing machine but the
computer just wouldn't start. 

>> Anyway, long live Emacs lisp.
>>
>> Footnotes: 
>> [1]  Not that I have anything against the mouse or GUIs; on
>> the contrary I think they can be very useful.  I just don't
>> think they are a good substitute for those things... for
>> which they are not a good substitute... like, er, most user
>> input, for instance.

Re: what is the important uses of emacs lisp?

[Ken Goldman]

stan wrote:
> 
> ... after awhile the tech discovered the woman stepping on the
> mouse just like she did with the pedal on her sewing machine but the
> computer just wouldn't start. 

Circling back to emacs, I can remember emacs users proposing a keyboard
with foot pedals for the control and alt keys.

Re: what is the important uses of emacs lisp?

[Glauber Alex Dias Prado]

Ken Goldman <kgold@watson.ibm.com> writes:

> stan wrote:
>>
>> ... after awhile the tech discovered the woman stepping on the
>> mouse just like she did with the pedal on her sewing machine but the
>> computer just wouldn't start. 
>
> Circling back to emacs, I can remember emacs users proposing a keyboard
> with foot pedals for the control and alt keys.
There is emacs-versor which is a specialized navigating mode done with
this setup in mind, it also allows for joystick ediditing(somewhat
experimental at the moment, but improving)

cheers,
glauber.

RE: what is the important uses of emacs lisp?

[Drew Adams]

> > Circling back to emacs, I can remember emacs users 
> > proposing a keyboard with foot pedals for the control and alt keys.

> There is emacs-versor which is a specialized navigating mode done with
> this setup in mind, it also allows for joystick ediditing(somewhat
> experimental at the moment, but improving)

http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/EmacsVersor

Re: what is the important uses of emacs lisp?

[stan]

Ken Goldman wrote:
> stan wrote:
>> 
>> ... after awhile the tech discovered the woman stepping on the
>> mouse just like she did with the pedal on her sewing machine but the
>> computer just wouldn't start. 
>
> Circling back to emacs, I can remember emacs users proposing a keyboard
> with foot pedals for the control and alt keys.

I like it. Maybe we could also get a button you hit with your forehead
for parentheses. That way I'd probably get better at touch typing the
things. I'm sure my current parentheses skill and lisp are one day going
to result in nasal demons.

Re: what is the important uses of emacs lisp?

[Oleksandr Gavenko]

Evans Winner wrote:
> 
> I'm on a bit of a rampage of late because I just took a new
> sysadmin job and found that the IT department policies are
> so absurdly strict that I can't even install my choice of
> text editors on the PC there.  There is a short (very short)
> list of allowed software (almost all of it proprietary, of
> course) and I'm just stuck with it.  There I am running a
> million-dollar system running (nee) OS/400 and on the front
> end I'm stuck with Windows and notepad.exe.  Point...
> grunt...  point...  grunt.

Man. I regret you.

what is the important uses of emacs lisp?

[xiaopeng hu]

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thanks

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