From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:57:51 +0100 Message-ID: <864pc2tyw0.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> References: <87myq4saw1.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <878x1os6mt.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <47B39231.8010108@gmail.com> <200802151711.m1FHB3Y3008798@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <200802171658.m1HGwQ4h011067@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <20080219085231.GA1032@muc.de> <200802190938.m1J9ccVg016565@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <20080219190127.GA1106@muc.de> <877ih0o9dx.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <86lk5f4fjb.fsf@timbral.net> <87ejb7babz.fsf@xmission.com> <85lk5fcod6.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87ablvb4om.fsf@xmission.com> <85lk5fb3ym.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <8763wjb0nk.fsf@xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1203588540 16017 80.91.229.12 (21 Feb 2008 10:09:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:09:00 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Evans Winner , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Jason Earl Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Feb 21 11:09:24 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JS8MZ-0008HR-RC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 11:09:12 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JS8M4-0004Pk-IH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:08:40 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JS8Bo-0007ip-EH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 04:58:04 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JS8Bk-0007hK-98 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 04:58:01 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JS8Bh-0007gs-UH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 04:57:59 -0500 Original-Received: from mail.quinscape.de ([212.29.44.217]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JS8Bh-0004rQ-9E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 04:57:57 -0500 Original-Received: (qmail-ldap/ctrl 9093 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2008 09:57:53 -0000 Original-Received: from unknown (HELO lola.quinscape.zz) ([10.0.3.43]) (envelope-sender ) by ns.quinscape.de (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 21 Feb 2008 09:57:52 -0000 Original-Received: by lola.quinscape.zz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0A0538FA9A; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:57:51 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <8763wjb0nk.fsf@xmission.com> (Jason Earl's message of "Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:42:23 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) X-AntiVirus: checked by AntiVir MailGate (version: 2.1.3-2; AVE: 7.6.0.67; VDF: 7.0.2.169; host: quinx) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:89805 Archived-At: Jason Earl writes: > David Kastrup writes: > >> Sorry, but you miss the fact that the highlighted region is _active_ >> whereas the non-highlighted region is _inactive_. And _active_ region >> changes the meaning of lots of commands, making them operate on the >> region instead of their normal range. An _inactive_ region defined >> with mark and point does not have such an effect. It merely sets mark >> somewhere but assigns no special meaning to the region. Only commands >> explicitly working on the region between mark and point are ever >> affected. > > Even an inactive region has meaning (C-w proves it). What about "Only commands explicitly working on the region between mark and point are ever affected" did you not understand? >> So transient-mark-mode does something quite different from merely >> highlighting the region. It changes its meaning. > > Yes, it changes the meaning in a way that even people that don't like > transient-mark-mode seem to like. Let's not forget that "temporary transient mark mode" is new with Emacs 22, and that many people preferred not having an active region at all (the default Emacs setting) than getting it forcefed by transient-mark-mode (which pretty much knows nothing except active regions). > That's why commands behave differently with active regions. Or are > you suggesting this feature should go away? I am suggesting that having a usable mark should not imply an active region. But that is more or less the premise of transient-mark-mode. > A new user that highlights a region using transient-mark-mode and then > does M-x query-replace to replace some text isn't going to be > surprised that only text in the highlighted region is affected. That implies that "highlights a region" is an explicit and voluntary act. Which it is when using the mouse or other means of temporary transient-mark mode (and temporary transient-mark mode is really a life saver: giving the possibilities of transient-mark mode without pressing it on you when you don't explicitly want it but are merely working with the mark). > Or if they are surprised they are likely to be excited by the fact > that they can search and replace in a subset of a file easily. After > all, you can always make the region inactive and run the command > again. But temporary tmm-mode buys you all that. > The real tragedy is that, without transient-mark-mode, new users won't > even know that they can run commands on a region of the text because > they won't learn about making a region active unless they stumble > accross the part of the manual that talks about The Mark and the > Region. Huh? New users will mark regions with the mouse, and that triggers temporary transient mark mode just fine. Are you sure you even _know_ the situation with Emacs 22? Or is your experience without a permanent tmm-mode dating from pre-Emacs 22? -- David Kastrup