From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: My resignation from Emacs development Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 16:25:07 +0200 Message-ID: <864j3zny64.fsf@gnu.org> References: <169c6564-4722-4338-a049-5f8f3ce69394@alphapapa.net> <86ldxbofgw.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22101"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 22 15:25:50 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tEUbU-0005W2-7P for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 15:25:48 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tEUaw-0002h4-KR; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 09:25:14 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tEUat-0002gj-Q0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 09:25:11 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tEUas-0005jp-WA; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 09:25:11 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=tt5pijQJ8G24TFMEfr713Kds+6Winf2bwp9fNgVGqBQ=; b=UNDyWI9JVsfd Pv/t1pnzdy8fyrM34mLMa+KY9q9weyNhSdPn0L2dHAMa+mUpXzWZoXCLn4p4ZHg3L0o6ByebXIlD2 G8xIUziPbzvfHu0HtBACCc2p4QWDA6v67iSqcyvXEhPIAV6DwgCe1OwnBH30YWbbaOhWD3rZ4ykBy GJUDBfUj3kJEXTsosAWi0ukVyd8a4pBacuhwlQjyZYcQHJXaDfaogTGw2LUOIICXuiTwQ4HE5YgTK o81nYxKipnAX+EotyX8/JfRCzHsFBXzWA+GHab9dcNAdGqORJwwmrvQw255IzafxKkfwQzAzhFO7+ 4TfGJ8u2eOP2pqRnKo9NhQ==; In-Reply-To: (message from Alan Mackenzie on Fri, 22 Nov 2024 13:06:40 +0000) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:325589 Archived-At: > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 13:06:40 +0000 > Cc: Madhu , emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Alan Mackenzie > > > The reason this didn't happen with Stefan Monnier is that at least I > > don't see any particular problem of this kind in what Stefan does (and > > did during the decades of his very active involvement in the project). > > I have taken the trouble to outline and analyse in detail several places > where Stefan's contributions have given rise to trouble, at least for me > personally, and certainly for some other contributors. Up till now, none > of you, Stefan K, or Andrea have replied with the same level of detail, > or even acknowledged what I wrote. I'm disappointed at this. Like I said: good-faith mistakes do happen, but they happen rarely. The cases you mentioned don't change and don't contradict that, even if one agrees 100% with your assessment of what happened in those cases. > > > The Emacs model of development is that we completely trust leading > > contributors to install changes without discussing them. This trust > > works well and keeps our development moving forward very fast, > > although sometimes there are good-faith mistakes, which then require > > discussions a-posteriori, and sometimes (rarely) end up with changes > > being reverted or radically modified. > > The model of development for all contributors bar Stefan M has involved > open discussion on emacs-devel before big changes. No other leading > contributor has violated this convention that I'm aware of. For example, > when you implemented the display-line-numbers facility, you did so > entirely in public. Bad example. The line-number display was a feature I implemented because others requested it; I myself don't use it and consider it un-Emacsy, as I told back then. So I needed the feedback very much because I couldn't myself make decisions about a feature I don't and won't use. If you want a better example, compare with development of bidirectional editing support. There, I posted a very small number of messages describing my design decisions, but never asked for their approval -- because in that area I know more than most anyone here. For a smaller and more recent example, consider the implementation of TTY menus. Or even the recent support for thumbnails on MS-Windows. > > All of the leading contributors, including yours truly, have sometimes, > > rarely, made such mistakes. Stefan's record is not different in this > > regard from any other's. > > Eli, how can you say this? Stefan's record is _very_ different. As I made it abundantly clear, I disagree. > > Moreover, Alan himself made such a mistake when he installed his > > cc-mode.el change back in May, the change which led to bug#74339, and > > eventually to this sad result (because Alan staunchly opposed to > > modifying his change from back then, even though the modifications > > proposed to him would not affect the effect of his change in any way). > > My mistake was more political than technical. Had I been more forthright > in exposing the problem in May, I still doubt anything would have been > done about it, precisely because the commit causing it was made by "a > leading contributor". That is an expectation I wouldn't have had two > days ago. If you had explained what you are about to do, I would have objected right there and then. Instead, I was surprised to discover this the hard way when I installed the 2nd pretest of Emacs 30 (I have no idea how I missed that with the first pretest). > > So there's nothing here that requires any "reigning in", just the > > normal practice of Emacs development, which hasn't changed in decades, > > because we think it fits well the way this community is structured, > > and the nature and the vast span of expertise needed to develop and > > maintain Emacs. > > I have regrettably resigned from Emacs, precisely because of this "normal > practice of Emacs development". And I regret your decision very much. I think and hope our common goal of developing Emacs should allow us to cooperate even with people with whom we occasionally disagree, even when the disagreements are radical.