From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Akira Kyle Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Introducing emacs-webkit and more thoughts on Emacs rendering (was Rethinking the design of xwidgets) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2020 17:24:14 -0700 Message-ID: <86360nwxch.fsf@akirakyle.com> References: <864kmzupp0.fsf@akirakyle.com> <86pn46awrr.fsf@akirakyle.com> <87y2ise7j5.fsf@gnus.org> <86tutfwhr6.fsf@akirakyle.com> <87h7pfb76z.fsf@gnus.org> <86h7peqkt5.fsf@akirakyle.com> <83tutdsc8i.fsf@gnu.org> <86eeker01y.fsf@akirakyle.com> <83wny5naf5.fsf@gnu.org> <86o8jh9cij.fsf@akirakyle.com> <83czzwkmwk.fsf@gnu.org> <86lfeja49y.fsf@akirakyle.com> <83360qlupj.fsf@gnu.org> <86wny293pg.fsf@akirakyle.com> <87eeka7yxk.fsf@logand.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="20536"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.4.13; emacs 28.0.50 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Tomas Hlavaty Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 03 01:25:13 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kkcQq-0005EX-Pw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 03 Dec 2020 01:25:12 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41854 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kkcQp-0003kQ-Pm for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 02 Dec 2020 19:25:11 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49812) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kkcQ1-0003JE-Pq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Dec 2020 19:24:22 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-il1-f172.google.com ([209.85.166.172]:41012) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kkcQ0-0003l4-07 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Dec 2020 19:24:21 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-il1-f172.google.com with SMTP id p5so304417iln.8 for ; Wed, 02 Dec 2020 16:24:17 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject :in-reply-to:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=IdWjD790LbL5du3C60zHvMvjXL6T16Mmazm1jE5IoC8=; b=beDeoeEt9z0Tt7AppjhJ9OeILz/TVtN19agbpE51qvUaGAgr3zGSwD+Mk3E01IAajB kAMY7VxRDYQyE3EH2VJ+7wDrxGFGSyjuUF6vhTUErKnZScMXqwSXghDRvPmH35Azv+In FOe1NKxMyyw2kPuuxoNLTr+87fIMgFo14Cy5pnwhjn+PgHJzln/SIIzcCx13Pwpp4uk5 MJRNnYIht/Zf/SSVM+bcX8kAyisP+n0qxEV/+poI47yVBbTvAEX5pUovFqtegNE7XiSq Q7zMhF2QxHlCqPAI+uRW/uFdu7z9JCU+WCa2wqS4iWVrvm5ETHAt+87g/0NHCdC6nmDP 0kSg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530XER8cgTWZLb54bYSns5pNAyyNC3UkNJwPyeXaLT8OvBaeJU6m Kjq0nVsm006zdEv0XT0TE9yvTnNw4j/jpw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxrkkAfQjYzJ1CpJ/NtFgCkNDtYkTycpnz8ntJJNUpUJvA8j7ONNOz/BTqF4tL7Mq7+XmBzpg== X-Received: by 2002:a92:600e:: with SMTP id u14mr712770ilb.221.1606955056279; Wed, 02 Dec 2020 16:24:16 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from data ([2601:281:8080:45f0:a7d0:2bd8:5ac1:c521]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j12sm178694ioq.24.2020.12.02.16.24.14 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 02 Dec 2020 16:24:15 -0800 (PST) In-reply-to: <87eeka7yxk.fsf@logand.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.166.172; envelope-from=aikokyle@gmail.com; helo=mail-il1-f172.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:260194 Archived-At: On Tue, Dec 01, 2020 at 12:44 AM, Tomas Hlavaty wrote: > On Mon 30 Nov 2020 at 10:03, Akira Kyle > wrote: >> and because I see pgtk as the future of Emacs on GNU/Linux >> systems as >> X becomes increasingly obsolete. > > I am not sure such future is bright. > > In that future, is there no way to do graphics without a widget > toolkit? Sure there is. Under wayland you can just dump pixels into a shared buffer to render them to the screen or use EGL to render using a GPU. The difference from X is that wayland offers no convince functions to actually draw pixels into such a buffer, its up to the client to do so. In order to not reinvent the wheel, its much more convenient to use a toolkit to draw the elements it's good at drawing. >> AFAIU the pgtk version, like the ns version it was modeled >> after, >> doesn't implement everything in the main frame area of Emacs as >> widgets, only the tool and menu bars are implemented as proper >> widgets. > > Also popup menus that pop up on a mouse click are gtk iirc. > > And maybe scrollbars? > > It may have changed since I turned these distractions off a long > time > ago. I think this is really ultimately a personal preference. > I think that they are also fundamentally flawed: How can I > search in > menu? Maybe it should be a buffer. New Gtk hides menu under an > unintuitive button anyway so this could just display searchable > Menu > buffer. I think it would be possible to implement such menus without GTK using just child frames. >> The main frame area is treated as just one big canvas that >> redisplay >> works its magic on as it would if it were just a TUI. > > Maybe that is a good thing. > > Widget toolkit dependency is a heavy price to pay for. I don't think it's a "heavy price to pay" in general. It greatly simplifies many applications, which if they were to forego a toolkit, would likely have codebases comparable to GTK or Emacs. But its true that Emacs is far more decoupled, for better or worse, from toolkits than your average GUI app.