Hi Eli, Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Arsen Arsenović >> Cc: jb@jeremybryant.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org >> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2024 19:08:40 +0100 >> >> > So I don't see how that move could damage the reputation of Texinfo. >> >> Emacs is extremely niche, while reading the documentation of various GNU >> packages is not. Ergo, we recommend people to read documentation using >> info (see e.g. help2man generated output) - as we should. > > Actually, I believe most people read the HTML version of the Texinfo > documentation. Yes, fair enough, that is likely overall most popular, but I still don't doubt 'info' is more widespread than Emacs. >> > Do you have any information to suggest that many people use the >> > stand-alone reader? >> >> Do you have information to suggest that many people use the in-Emacs >> reader? I certainly do use it, so we can put that a mark on the >> chalkboard. > > I think Emacs users use Emacs (of course), and the rest read the > manuals in their HTML format. I have yet to see a number of people > who use the stand-alone reader that cannot be counted on the fingers > of a single hand. (And don't misunderstand me: I think the > stand-alone Info reader is great, and personally invested quite a few > efforts in developing and porting it. My Windows port of Texinfo, > routinely available from the ezwinports site, is one of a couple, > perhaps even the only one, which includes a fully functional Windows > port of the stand-alone Info reader.) Even those that do use the HTML format might sometimes not be able to conveniently access it (e.g. on a remote machine, or because distros don't install HTML versions of texinfo documentation). Also, the HTML format is harder to browse (no convenient index searching, for instance) currently. There was a proposed JS-based enhancement for this interface,[1](archive: [2]), developing that could remedy this (as long as it implemented graceful degradation so that it can be viewed without JS). FTR I do hope that we manage to get a 'properly integrated', 'dir' node and all, index-searchable, ... installed HTML version of Texinfo documentation in GNU packages and GNU distributions. I think the info file format has some drawbacks (e.g. it's a catfile-style format, with hard wrapping, which fails on narrow screens of course). I wonder whether Emacs could read (the relevant parts of) that HTML. If not, then maybe a new more Emacs-friendly format to replace the current info file format is needed. > Anyway, the initiative for moving info.info to Emacs was from the > Texinfo developers (I'm sure you can find the relevant discussions in > the archives). So if you think it should be moved back, feel free to > take it up with them. Yes, I've exchanged mail with Gavin about this before. I was using info.info as an example of problems caused by packaging up unrelated things together in this thread. In hindsight, I'd also not mind if info-stnd.texi contained a copy of the Info tutorial that the Emacs info manual includes, so that the standalone viewers get-info-help-node works always. What do you think of that? If that was to be the case, info-stnd would not need to rely on info.info (at least for any reason I can think of), and so, this would become a non-issue. Have a lovely day. [1] https://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo-html/index.html [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20190407054314/https://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo-html/index.html -- Arsen Arsenović