From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: New start up splash screen annoyance... Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 07:45:00 +0200 Message-ID: <85r6kvxl7n.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <87sl5n5yem.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87fy1nbe4f.fsf@jurta.org> <86myvu2zw1.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> <20070912093913.GB12104@saeurebad.de> <87wsuum8qw.fsf@jurta.org> <85abrn9ini.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <85d4wh3kf9.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <851wcw1qht.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87lkb4t3wv.fsf@kfs-lx.testafd.dk> <861wcw3s2q.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1190180730 19231 80.91.229.12 (19 Sep 2007 05:45:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 05:45:30 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Glenn Morris , larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, storm@cua.dk To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 19 07:45:29 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1IXsNL-0001Tp-80 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 07:45:27 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXsNJ-0001d5-OR for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 01:45:25 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IXsNC-0001cS-4A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 01:45:18 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IXsN9-0001cA-Pz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 01:45:16 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXsN9-0001c7-JC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 01:45:15 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-07.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.47]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1IXsN2-0007Ir-Bo; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 01:45:08 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-06-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-06-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.18]) by mail-in-07.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFE1D24ADBE; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 07:45:06 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from mail-in-02.arcor-online.net (mail-in-02.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.42]) by mail-in-06-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2E625BF3A; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 07:45:06 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from lola.goethe.zz (dslb-084-061-012-122.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.61.12.122]) by mail-in-02.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9284236E86A; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 07:45:02 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: by lola.goethe.zz (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 7AFB21CDAC0C; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 07:45:01 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Tue\, 18 Sep 2007 23\:18\:17 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1.50 (gnu/linux) X-Detected-Kernel: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:79276 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > I don't think an echo area message can do the job, because there > is not enough room. An extra level of indirection would be far > less effective. I completely agree that this is far less effective, and it is so by design: it leaves the decision of when to peruse the startup screen to the user when the user starts Emacs with a command line. If we grant that reducing effectiveness to this level (which hopefully is acceptable to most people) might be appropriate (and I strongly think it is), we can think about how to replace !) make sure that the user can't avoid getting a splash screen, against his explicit wish to start editing a particular file with the following: a) make sure that the user will be aware of the startup screen and certain how to get it b) make it obvious to the user that it would be in his best interest to peruse it if he has not already done so. I believe that we can achieve this with either a somewhat persistent echo area message or a tooltip popup, either timed for about 30 seconds. We use such echo area messages for teaching keybindings, and they are effective for that purpose. We use tooltips for conveying a number of other information, and they also are doing a reasonably good job without being annoying. > The idea of popping up two frames seems worth trying. > Would someone like to try it? Tooltips are frames designed to be unobtrusive but noticeable, so it would be a good idea to use them. However, the splash screen would be too large for a tooltip, and links would not be followable in a tooltip, and it is a bit too ephemeral for such a bunch of information. So while we already have an interface for an information popup, it would be appropriate to use another indirection level when using it. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum