From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs vista build failures Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:26:58 +0200 Message-ID: <85prp03eml.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <48861A51.1090401@gmail.com> <20080724080727.GA3448@muc.de> <863alzd1mi.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> <20080726080304.GA1419@muc.de> <85myk53u86.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20080726102948.GD1419@muc.de> <8563qs529d.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20080726123353.GF1419@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1217082447 14983 80.91.229.12 (26 Jul 2008 14:27:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 14:27:27 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jul 26 16:28:16 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KMkkl-0005N8-16 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:28:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38676 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KMkjq-0006K2-Uy for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:27:15 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KMkjm-0006JQ-Fh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:27:10 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KMkjl-0006JD-9X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:27:09 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=55481 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KMkjl-0006JA-2w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:27:09 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-11.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.51]:54021) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KMkjd-0006Xw-KB; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:27:02 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-19-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-19-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.36]) by mail-in-11.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31E262090D9; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:27:00 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from mail-in-17.arcor-online.net (mail-in-17.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.57]) by mail-in-19-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AC326BD77; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:27:00 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from lola.goethe.zz (dslb-084-061-019-167.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.61.19.167]) by mail-in-17.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C482BCAC4; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:26:59 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: by lola.goethe.zz (Postfix, from userid 1002) id E6DF81C4CCF2; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:26:58 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <20080726123353.GF1419@muc.de> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:33:53 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.93.3/7832/Sat Jul 26 15:22:27 2008 on mail-in-17.arcor-online.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:101525 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie writes: > Hi, David! > >> There is nothing to be gained by putting the cart before the horse and >> confusing the means to an end with the end itself, to the degree of >> abandoning the end in order to run after the means. > > The central point. As I said before, I think for Richard (and > possibly for you), free software is an end in itself. It most certainly isn't. But if the software or its platform is unfree, it is _utterly_ out of your control whether or not a user might benefit from it, and whether he has to pay through his nose to be allowed to reap the benefits of _your_ work. > For me it's a tool towards a better world. I suspect that's the > essential difference between us which is fuelling this discussion. No, the essential difference is that you consider proprietary corporations and business models suitable and responsible caretakers for a better world. If that were the case, there would have been nothing wrong with letting the market sort out the problem of software availability. But the market will do whatever people let it get away with. Read a current Windows license: people are comfortable with signing away their privacy, their security, and their system contents and control over it to Microsoft and think that that's what they deserve. The problem with the notion that it is ok to water down free software is that free software does not fall from the trees. You have to _create_ it before you can start with watering it down. And that is what the GNU project is about. The watering down is not what needs our help. It will happen anyway. >> Emacs is a free program, not a free system. And I doubt that people >> preferring to use Emacs on Windows do that because they want to use a >> free system, but rather because they want to use Emacs. > > Yes, I think that's true. A lot of them do want to use a free system > but can't, because their employers' setups won't let them. So should we go out of our way to make it _comfortable_ for them to stay with unfree systems? There is nothing to be gained except more work and more demands and fewer free systems and fewer people working on them. >> > This will often be the case. Other times, Windows will be merely a >> > platform for developing portable software or embedded software. >> > The ethos of free software is that its creators do not constrain >> > what its users may do with it, even if that aim is writing non-free >> > software. > >> But the ethos is not that its creators need to applaud or help the >> users writing non-free software. > >> So I don't see that you are doing anything for free software by >> attacking my opinion. > > Maybe promoting deeper understanding of the issues for both of us? You are presuming that I don't understand what I am talking about, and there is a point to your arguments that I am not able to comprehend. Do you really think I (or Richard) have never been where you are? Do you think that the marvels of unfree platforms are so rare that only chosen people like yourself get to see them? > I agree with all that, and none of it contradicts what I've said. I > would just add that the fact that software is free tends to promote > its technical excellence, Emacs and Linux being two good examples. Two rather bad examples since they never were non-free to start with, so you can't say whether the freedom promoted the excellence or not. Both projects have certainly much more been impacted by the personality and the technical decisions of their original creators. And Linux (by which you presumably mean the kernel) would have stayed a fringe product without GNU to run on it. If you take a look at the development cycles and feature growth of free software products, you'll find that more often than not they are dwarfed by proprietary products. And Emacs is certainly an example for slow development. But the freedom means that the software stays around and retains its breathing space. And software that keeps getting developed for 30 years _will_ gather some usefulness over the time. But the quality attained through longevity is an indirect consequence of the freedom. If you start a free and a closed-shop project with equal developer power at the same time, there is no reason that the free one should become better. That does not mean that it's a bad idea to bank on the free project: that way, every one is a winner. >> > The only context an MS-Windows user is going to see free software >> > in is on MS-Windows. > >> That's his problem. > > :-) But we can help him. Taking pity on someone who fails to shoot himself in the foot and loading his gun for him... -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum