From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs vista build failures Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:50:01 +0200 Message-ID: <85myk53u86.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <871w1njq32.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <87iquzxgtk.fsf@saeurebad.de> <4884CFEF.8040404@gmail.com> <48861A51.1090401@gmail.com> <20080724080727.GA3448@muc.de> <863alzd1mi.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> <20080726080304.GA1419@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1217062286 31532 80.91.229.12 (26 Jul 2008 08:51:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:51:26 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jul 26 10:52:15 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KMfVa-0004yx-Os for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:52:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44838 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KMfUh-000237-35 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 04:51:15 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KMfTj-0001nn-Vm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 04:50:16 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KMfTi-0001nH-8Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 04:50:14 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=53446 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KMfTh-0001nA-A6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 04:50:13 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-10.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.50]:40100) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KMfTZ-0001IV-R3; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 04:50:06 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-05-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-05-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.17]) by mail-in-10.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5338B1F50D3; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:50:03 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (mail-in-03.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.43]) by mail-in-05-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3723A2DAA8D; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:50:03 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from lola.goethe.zz (dslb-084-061-019-167.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.61.19.167]) by mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 950303425E4; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:50:02 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: by lola.goethe.zz (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 7D64F1C4CCF2; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:50:01 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <20080726080304.GA1419@muc.de> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:03:04 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.93.3/7829/Sat Jul 26 04:24:44 2008 on mail-in-03.arcor-online.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:101507 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie writes: > Morning, everybody! > > On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 05:20:16PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> > From: Richard M Stallman >> > Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:05:28 -0400 >> > Cc: lord@emf.net, drobinow@gmail.com, lennart.borgman@gmail.com, >> > hannes@saeurebad.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org, acm@muc.de, miles@gnu.org > >> > > When I ask myself, is the world better for having Emacs and Firefox >> > > running on Microsoft Windows, the answer is an unequivocal yes - >> > > people who hack on MS-Windows can thus do a better job. > > [David K:] >> > But their job does not in general benefit others. > > Hmm. What if that software written on w32 has satisfied users? What of it? Excel, Microsoft Word, Windows Vista and other proprietary software satisfy far more users than free software does. And more Chinese citizens are satisfied with their government than European citizens. Does that mean that we should take our standards for human rights from China? Do the ends justify the means? This is not what free software is about. > Let's see, users of mobile telephones, users of automotive control > systems (which reduce pollution), Emacs itself (there is at least one > Emacs developer with his Emacs hosted on w32), ....... > > [David K:] >> > So we are creating better opportunities for work that does not >> > help the community. > > "The" community. That of Free Software is merely one of many > interlocking and interdependent communities. It is the one the GNU project cares about. > My view, already expressed, is that we have a moral imperative to > contribute towards the wellbeing of the world, not just our own > restricted subset of it. It is not restricted. Anybody who cares can be a part of it. We are no longer in the situation that you have to run free software off unfree operating systems. We don't have a moral imperative to help those who refuse to be helped. That's a waste of resources. > My impression is that a substantial minority, possibly even a > majority, of Emacs users run on this particular non-free OS, and that > the cost of supporting them is low by comparison. The cost is that they don't care about using or improving free systems. > Carry on doing it, Eli! > > Again, what is the purpose of free software? Is it an end in itself, > it's final goal being its exclusive use by everybody, or is it to > improve the world? If the former, I hope the goal is never scored, > because then free software would by stymied, with nowhere to go. It is to improve the world, and the world is not improved by locking people into Windows. A developer using Emacs for developing Windows software will lock his users into Windows. There is enough other software that has this effect. It is not a particularly interesting goal to make Emacs do the same. The idea of free software is not to provide a comfortable place for people willing to give up their rights. Like with democracy, given the choice many people will be perfectly happy to take choices compromising their freedoms. It is not an objective for free software to make it easier for them. It is a sideeffect. Freedom rarely comes without the choice or ability to foresake it again. It is fragile, and only letting people keep that in mind gives it strength. It appears that we are not exactly doing a good job. Emacs is one-of-a-kind, and so there are not really any technically equivalent alternatives, free or non-free. Should we treat this as a strength or as a weakness? -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum