From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:47:55 +0200 Message-ID: <85lk38wsc4.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <004a01c8a1a0$7215cdd0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <878wz9btq8.fsf@jurta.org> <85fxthy4qp.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87od857fg1.fsf@jurta.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1208699311 2400 80.91.229.12 (20 Apr 2008 13:48:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:48:31 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Stefan Monnier , Drew Adams , Emacs-Devel To: Juri Linkov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 20 15:49:05 2008 connect(): Connection refused Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JnZuf-0007ph-LR for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:49:02 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JnZu0-0004Nc-CG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:48:20 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JnZtv-0004MC-D7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:48:15 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JnZtq-0004BA-PW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:48:14 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JnZtq-0004Am-DL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:48:10 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-09.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.49]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JnZtq-0003Fh-4u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:48:10 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-18-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-18-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.35]) by mail-in-09.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF2F3029CA; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:48:08 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from mail-in-12.arcor-online.net (mail-in-12.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.52]) by mail-in-18-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F55F51062A; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:48:08 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from lola.goethe.zz (dslb-084-061-002-239.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.61.2.239]) by mail-in-12.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B84A88C464; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:48:03 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: by lola.goethe.zz (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 9F5721C452D2; Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:47:55 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <87od857fg1.fsf@jurta.org> (Juri Linkov's message of "Sat, 19 Apr 2008 23:33:18 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.92.1/6846/Sun Apr 20 06:06:11 2008 on mail-in-12.arcor-online.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:95517 Archived-At: Juri Linkov writes: >>>> I use C-M-SPC *very* often, typically just before C-y (together with >>>> a variant of delete-selection-mode). >>> >>> BTW, since now shift-selection is available by default, I think we should >>> enable delete-selection-mode, because otherwise it is very confusing >>> for users coming from other programs to discover the weird behavior >>> of transient-mark-mode when delete-selection-mode is disabled. >> >> No. I am already getting surprise region activations with the current >> settings. Getting it erased by surprise is not what I consider fun. > > I already know that you don't like transient-mark-mode. So the only > option for you is to disable transient-mark-mode completely. Sorry, but that does not fly. We are talking about the default settings of Emacs here. Enabling transient-mark-mode by default gives us an active region for all mark-* commands as well as C-x C-x. So an active region has become a much more common occurence in the normal workflow than previously. Making this region inactive requires C-g (a command that has no equivalent whatsoever in CUA that would also work in Emacs). So after a region became active, it is, for the average user, almost impossible to avoid deleting it if we have delete-selection-mode active. This is not good enough. If a normal workflow more or less necessitates shooting yourself in the foot, even if this workflow is somewhat similar to "CUA" or "everybody else", then the solution is not to punch people in the mouth who don't use CUA or accustomed to it. The solution is to create a useful and consistent workflow that does minimal unintended damage. And CUA/transient-mark-mode is not there yet where delete-selection-mode would fit in. > What I meant is that when the region is active in transient-mark-mode > typing a character that doesn't delete the region is not only useless > but also looks like a bug to users of any program other than Emacs. Not having a useful way to type a character that doesn't delete the region (when activating the region is something which happens unintentionally for some workloads and can't be undone without, say, beeping and/or flashing all over the workplace, the normal reaction to C-g) is a bug in user interface design. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum