From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Emacs documentation. Was My emacs was upgraded and I am a novice again Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 17:11:29 +0200 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <85k5qho1r2.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <711a73df0709230253p1d125c13qede773d03c75ad21@mail.gmail.com> <87hcllbppf.fsf@bzg.ath.cx> <85ejgppmun.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1190562044 26259 80.91.229.12 (23 Sep 2007 15:40:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 15:40:44 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 23 17:40:39 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1IZTZX-0006No-0l for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 17:40:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZTZU-0007MS-02 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 11:40:36 -0400 Original-Path: shelby.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!xs4all!feeder.news-service.com!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.arcor.de!newsspool4.arcor-online.net!news.arcor.de.POSTED!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:9XR2yBlKTomZctLROAPObnQ7oZ8= Original-Lines: 50 Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Sep 2007 17:11:29 CEST Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 30c21fdd.newsspool2.arcor-online.net Original-X-Trace: DXC=B\QUmhM^YlC6PJ?[X6JIXEA9EHlD; 3YcB4Fo<]lROoRA<`=YMgDjhgBj=; ldn=k8; G1_LiI6ENVaM3>5MOK`; S:bhJL5LC9o>L_UAB?dkYlcSg<3H Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@arcor.de Original-Xref: shelby.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:152265 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:47771 Archived-At: "Dave Pawson" writes: > On 23/09/2007, David Kastrup wrote: > > >> If I break my arm it is also more flexible. The question is what >> tanglible, user-visible benefit you expect to be coming from the >> purported added flexibility. > > Forget it David. Wouldn't want to upset you. If you don't upset anybody by explaining user-visible benefits, you won't get into a position to upset the current way of doing things. >> You are proposing to have a lot of work done > > No, I was offering to do a lot of work. Sure, and that is appreciated. But it would be unrealistic to expect that you will do all of the work to convert all of GNU to a new document format and maintain all of that documentation in all eternity. So without a favorable cost/benefit estimate, you can't expect people to jump on your boat. And if you are fully prepared to do _all_ of the work, go ahead. Nobody is keeping you from it. You'll still need to convince people in the end that they are better off using your work than what they had previously. >> >> I guess too many developpers actually use Texinfo to document >> >> their code, and both users and developpers seem to be happy with >> >> that. >> > >> > You may be right. I think it is worth challenging though, >> > otherwise we'll never progress? >> >> Progress without aim is just activism. You need to balance benefits >> and efforts. > > Against stagnation. Fine warcry, but we are talking about Emacs here, software close to its 30th birthday, and GNU, inspired by ancient UNIX systems. Of course, you can just go ahead: "code talks" is a mantra not unheard of in these circles. Being able to demonstrate a working implementation always improves your chances of acceptance. But not to 100%. Whether or not you want to explain them, there need to be tangible benefits. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum