bug#22561: 25.0.90; dired alphabetic sort of listing handles leading '.' strangely on MS Windows

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* bug#22561: 25.0.90; dired alphabetic sort of listing handles leading '.' strangely on MS Windows
       [not found] ` <<83zivfvd93.fsf@gnu.org>
@ 2016-02-05 15:32   ` Drew Adams
  2016-02-05 19:32     ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2016-02-05 15:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii, Kevin Gallagher; +Cc: 22561

> > I believe the listing in Emacs 24.5 is preferable. It 25.0.90, it is as if
> > the initial period in any file/directory entry is
> > being ignored when sorting alphabetically. Also, upper and lower case are
> > also being ignored.
> 
> It's a new feature, meant to emulate more closely what Emacs and 'ls'
> do on GNU/Linux.  From NEWS:
> 
>   *** The ls-lisp package uses `string-collate-lessp' to sort file names.
>   If you want the old, locale-independent sorting, customize the new
>   option `ls-lisp-use-string-collate' to a nil value.
> 
> OK to close this bug?

Why was the default behavior changed?  Why not let Windows _users_
choose to sort in this new way?  If, after several years of that,
users are clamouring for the default behavior to change, emacs-devel
can discuss that possibility and perhaps change to using
`string-collate-lessp' by default.

It should be:

  If you want the new, locale-dependent sorting, customize the new
  option `ls-lisp-use-string-collate' to a non-nil value.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* bug#22561: 25.0.90; dired alphabetic sort of listing handles leading '.' strangely on MS Windows
  2016-02-05 15:32   ` bug#22561: 25.0.90; dired alphabetic sort of listing handles leading '.' strangely on MS Windows Drew Adams
@ 2016-02-05 19:32     ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-02-05 19:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 22561, kevin.gal

> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 07:32:08 -0800 (PST)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: 22561@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> >   *** The ls-lisp package uses `string-collate-lessp' to sort file names.
> >   If you want the old, locale-independent sorting, customize the new
> >   option `ls-lisp-use-string-collate' to a nil value.
> > 
> > OK to close this bug?
> 
> Why was the default behavior changed?

Because it's a better default.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

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* bug#22561: 25.0.90; dired alphabetic sort of listing handles leading '.' strangely on MS Windows
       [not found]         ` <<83powau8dc.fsf@gnu.org>
@ 2016-02-05 22:55           ` Drew Adams
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2016-02-05 22:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii, Drew Adams; +Cc: 22561, kevin.gal

> > > > Why was the default behavior changed?
> > > Because it's a better default.
> > Why?  What supporting reasons?
> 
> It's closer to what Emacs does on GNU/Linux.  It is also closer to
> what the Windows Explorer does.
> 
> > Was there discussion about that, or did someone just decide
> > it without discussion?
> 
> There were lots of discussions when this was introduced.

OK; thanks.  I must have missed that.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

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[parent not found: <<83wpqjt0l6.fsf@gnu.org>]

* bug#22561: 25.0.90; dired alphabetic sort of listing handles leading '.' strangely on MS Windows
       [not found]     ` <<83wpqjt0l6.fsf@gnu.org>
@ 2016-02-05 20:00       ` Drew Adams
  2016-02-05 21:58         ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2016-02-05 20:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii, Drew Adams; +Cc: 22561, kevin.gal

> > >   *** The ls-lisp package uses `string-collate-lessp' to sort file
> names.
> > >   If you want the old, locale-independent sorting, customize the new
> > >   option `ls-lisp-use-string-collate' to a nil value.
> > >
> > > OK to close this bug?
> >
> > Why was the default behavior changed?
> 
> Because it's a better default.

Why?  What supporting reasons?

Was there discussion about that, or did someone just decide
it without discussion?





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* bug#22561: 25.0.90; dired alphabetic sort of listing handles leading '.' strangely on MS Windows
  2016-02-05 20:00       ` Drew Adams
@ 2016-02-05 21:58         ` Eli Zaretskii
  2016-02-06 23:17           ` Kevin Gallagher
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-02-05 21:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 22561, kevin.gal

> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 12:00:53 -0800 (PST)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: kevin.gal@verizon.net, 22561@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > > >   *** The ls-lisp package uses `string-collate-lessp' to sort file
> > names.
> > > >   If you want the old, locale-independent sorting, customize the new
> > > >   option `ls-lisp-use-string-collate' to a nil value.
> > > >
> > > > OK to close this bug?
> > >
> > > Why was the default behavior changed?
> > 
> > Because it's a better default.
> 
> Why?  What supporting reasons?

It's closer to what Emacs does on GNU/Linux.  It is also closer to
what the Windows Explorer does.

> Was there discussion about that, or did someone just decide
> it without discussion?

There were lots of discussions when this was introduced.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* bug#22561: 25.0.90; dired alphabetic sort of listing handles leading '.' strangely on MS Windows
  2016-02-05 21:58         ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2016-02-06 23:17           ` Kevin Gallagher
  2016-02-07 15:52             ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Kevin Gallagher @ 2016-02-06 23:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii, Drew Adams; +Cc: 22561

On 2/5/2016 3:58 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 12:00:53 -0800 (PST)
>> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
>> Cc: kevin.gal@verizon.net, 22561@debbugs.gnu.org
>>
>>>>>    *** The ls-lisp package uses `string-collate-lessp' to sort file
>>> names.
>>>>>    If you want the old, locale-independent sorting, customize the new
>>>>>    option `ls-lisp-use-string-collate' to a nil value.
>>>>>
>>>>> OK to close this bug?
>>>> Why was the default behavior changed?
>>> Because it's a better default.
>> Why?  What supporting reasons?
> It's closer to what Emacs does on GNU/Linux.  It is also closer to
> what the Windows Explorer does.
>
>> Was there discussion about that, or did someone just decide
>> it without discussion?
> There were lots of discussions when this was introduced.
>
OK, since the change is documented, I agree it is clearly not a bug.  
But I would submit that, when using Emacs on Windows, having dired 
display a directory precisely the same way Windows Explorer displays it 
is a better default. To accomplish this, the following two 
customizations suffice.

In the Ls Lisp group, do the following:

-- toggle   Ls Lisp Uca Like Collation     to off (nil)
-- toggle   Ls Lisp Dirs First                    to on (non-nil)



---
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* bug#22561: 25.0.90; dired alphabetic sort of listing handles leading '.' strangely on MS Windows
  2016-02-06 23:17           ` Kevin Gallagher
@ 2016-02-07 15:52             ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-02-07 15:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Kevin Gallagher; +Cc: 22561-done

> Cc: 22561@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Kevin Gallagher <kevin.gal@verizon.net>
> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2016 17:17:23 -0600
> 
> OK, since the change is documented, I agree it is clearly not a bug.  

Thanks, closing.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* bug#22561: 25.0.90; dired alphabetic sort of listing handles leading '.' strangely on MS Windows
@ 2016-02-05  0:10 Kevin Gallagher
  2016-02-05  7:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Kevin Gallagher @ 2016-02-05  0:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 22561

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 9967 bytes --]

In M.S. Windows 7, Started Emacs with

C:\emacs-25.0.90\bin\runemacs.exe -Q

Entered <C-x> <C-f> <RET>

The following listing of my home directory looks as follows

c:/kg:
   total used in directory 210 available 150000864
   drwxrwxrwx  1 TrustedInstaller TrustedInstaller 24576 02-03 13:31 ..
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None             12288 02-04 17:28 .
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None              1835 2012-02-01  
.aliases~
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 Administrators   None              1893 2014-04-14  
.aliases
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2005-07-09  
.autosave
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None              8231 01-31 15:31 
.bash_history
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None               263 2011-06-27  .bashrc
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2014-04-14  
bin-save
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 Administrators   None              1404 2014-06-30  
.edt-gnu-W32-keys
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 Administrators   None              1409 2014-04-13  
.edt-gnu-W32-keys-save
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None             44241 2007-12-12  
edt-user.doc
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2013-05-19  emacs
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None              6438 2012-05-02  .emacs
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2012-05-13  
.emacs.d
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None              6103 2011-07-25  
.emacs-indent-4
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None                 7 2007-12-09  
.emacs-places
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None             34540 2001-09-03  
filladapt.el
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2005-12-23  .fvwm
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2014-03-14  
Game Stuff
   drwxrwxrwx  1 Administrators   None                 0 12-06 09:58 
.gimp-2.8
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None               188 2005-09-21  
.history
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2013-07-23  lisp
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None              4096 2013-07-23  .lisp
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2012-05-13  
Magueijo
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 Administrators   None              3632 2014-04-15  
message-20140415-140728
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 Administrators   None              2725 02-04 17:33 
#message-20160204-172757#
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None               195 2011-08-23  
.profile~
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None               111 2014-05-24  
.profile
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None             35820 2005-07-03  RMAIL
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None              1024 2008-11-30  .rnd
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2012-12-19  
.save-env
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None               125 2005-07-09  
.saves-2304-janus
   drwxrwxrwx  1 Administrators   None                 0 2014-04-14  share
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 Administrators   None               134 2014-04-15  
stuff.sh~
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 Administrators   None               135 2014-04-15  
stuff.sh
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2009-04-15  TempSBE
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2012-05-13  .texmf
   drwxrwxrwx  1 Administrators   None                 0 2015-08-02  
.thumbnails
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 Administrators   None             14000 2013-05-26  
videos.docx
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 Administrators   None              4928 2013-05-26  
videos.txt
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None              3672 2012-10-06  
vids.txt
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None               554 2005-11-18  .xdvirc
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2013-07-23  .xemacs

In Emacs 24.5, the listing of the same directory looks like this:

c:/kg:
   total used in directory 210 available 150000864
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh None             12288 02-04 17:28 .
   drwxrwxrwx  1 TrustedInstaller TrustedInstaller 24576 02-03 13:31 ..
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 Administrators   None              1893 2014-04-14  
.aliases
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None              1835 2012-02-01  
.aliases~
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2005-07-09  
.autosave
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None              8231 01-31 15:31 
.bash_history
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None               263 2011-06-27  .bashrc
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 Administrators   None              1404 2014-06-30  
.edt-gnu-W32-keys
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 Administrators   None              1409 2014-04-13  
.edt-gnu-W32-keys-save
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None              6438 2012-05-02  .emacs
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None              6103 2011-07-25  
.emacs-indent-4
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None                 7 2007-12-09  
.emacs-places
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2012-05-13  
.emacs.d
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2005-12-23  .fvwm
   drwxrwxrwx  1 Administrators   None                 0 12-06 09:58 
.gimp-2.8
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None               188 2005-09-21  
.history
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None              4096 2013-07-23  .lisp
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None               111 2014-05-24  
.profile
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None               195 2011-08-23  
.profile~
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None              1024 2008-11-30  .rnd
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2012-12-19  
.save-env
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None               125 2005-07-09  
.saves-2304-janus
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2012-05-13  .texmf
   drwxrwxrwx  1 Administrators   None                 0 2015-08-02  
.thumbnails
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None               554 2005-11-18  .xdvirc
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2013-07-23  .xemacs
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2014-03-14  
Game Stuff
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2012-05-13  
Magueijo
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None             35820 2005-07-03  RMAIL
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2009-04-15  TempSBE
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2014-04-14  
bin-save
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None             44241 2007-12-12  
edt-user.doc
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2013-05-19  emacs
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None             34540 2001-09-03  
filladapt.el
   drwxrwxrwx  1 kgallagh         None                 0 2013-07-23  lisp
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 Administrators   None              3632 2014-04-15  
message-20140415-140728
   drwxrwxrwx  1 Administrators   None                 0 2014-04-14  share
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 Administrators   None               135 2014-04-15  
stuff.sh
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 Administrators   None               134 2014-04-15  
stuff.sh~
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 Administrators   None             14000 2013-05-26  
videos.docx
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 Administrators   None              4928 2013-05-26  
videos.txt
   -rw-rw-rw-  1 kgallagh         None              3672 2012-10-06  
vids.txt

I believe the listing in Emacs 24.5 is preferable. It 25.0.90, it is as 
if the initial period in any file/directory entry is being ignored when 
sorting alphabetically. Also, upper and lower case are also being ignored.


In GNU Emacs 25.0.90.2 (i686-pc-mingw32)
  of 2016-01-31 built on JANUS3
Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601
Configured using:
  'configure --prefix=/c/emacs-25.0.90 CPPFLAGS=-I/c/usr/include'

Configured features:
XPM JPEG TIFF GIF SOUND NOTIFY ACL TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS

Important settings:
   value of $LANG: ENU
   locale-coding-system: cp1252

Major mode: Dired by name

Minor modes in effect:
   tooltip-mode: t
   global-eldoc-mode: t
   electric-indent-mode: t
   mouse-wheel-mode: t
   tool-bar-mode: t
   menu-bar-mode: t
   file-name-shadow-mode: t
   global-font-lock-mode: t
   font-lock-mode: t
   blink-cursor-mode: t
   auto-composition-mode: t
   auto-encryption-mode: t
   auto-compression-mode: t
   buffer-read-only: t
   line-number-mode: t
   transient-mark-mode: t

Recent messages:
For information about GNU Emacs and the GNU system, type C-h C-a.

Load-path shadows:
None found.

Features:
(shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug message format-spec rfc822 mml mml-sec
epg epg-config gnus-util mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse
rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045
ietf-drums mm-util help-fns help-mode easymenu cl-loaddefs pcase cl-lib
mail-prsvr mail-utils dired time-date mule-util tooltip eldoc electric
uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel dos-w32 ls-lisp
disp-table w32-win w32-vars term/common-win tool-bar dnd fontset image
regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list newcomment elisp-mode lisp-mode
prog-mode register page menu-bar rfn-eshadow timer select scroll-bar
mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core frame cl-generic cham
georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao
korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech
european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese charscript case-table epa-hook
jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev minibuffer cl-preloaded nadvice
loaddefs button faces cus-face macroexp files text-properties overlay
sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget
hashtable-print-readable backquote w32notify w32 multi-tty
make-network-process emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 8 91893 10306)
  (symbols 32 19566 0)
  (miscs 32 40 181)
  (strings 16 16515 3771)
  (string-bytes 1 437792)
  (vectors 8 12386)
  (vector-slots 4 426311 4428)
  (floats 8 160 112)
  (intervals 28 782 407)
  (buffers 516 12))



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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* bug#22561: 25.0.90; dired alphabetic sort of listing handles leading '.' strangely on MS Windows
  2016-02-05  0:10 Kevin Gallagher
@ 2016-02-05  7:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
  2016-02-05 10:31   ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-02-05  7:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Kevin Gallagher; +Cc: 22561

> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2016 18:10:28 -0600
> From: Kevin Gallagher <kevin.gal@verizon.net>
> 
> I believe the listing in Emacs 24.5 is preferable. It 25.0.90, it is as if the initial period in any file/directory entry is
> being ignored when sorting alphabetically. Also, upper and lower case are also being ignored.

It's a new feature, meant to emulate more closely what Emacs and 'ls'
do on GNU/Linux.  From NEWS:

  *** The ls-lisp package uses `string-collate-lessp' to sort file names.
  If you want the old, locale-independent sorting, customize the new
  option `ls-lisp-use-string-collate' to a nil value.

OK to close this bug?

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* bug#22561: 25.0.90; dired alphabetic sort of listing handles leading '.' strangely on MS Windows
  2016-02-05  7:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2016-02-05 10:31   ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-02-05 10:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kevin.gal; +Cc: 22561

> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2016 09:15:52 +0200
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> Cc: 22561@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> It's a new feature, meant to emulate more closely what Emacs and 'ls'
> do on GNU/Linux.  From NEWS:
> 
>   *** The ls-lisp package uses `string-collate-lessp' to sort file names.
>   If you want the old, locale-independent sorting, customize the new
>   option `ls-lisp-use-string-collate' to a nil value.

I've now expanded that entry to better explain the effects of this
change.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2016-02-07 15:52 UTC | newest]

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2016-02-05 15:32   ` bug#22561: 25.0.90; dired alphabetic sort of listing handles leading '.' strangely on MS Windows Drew Adams
2016-02-05 19:32     ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found] <<<<56B3E874.5000601@verizon.net>
     [not found] ` <<<<83zivfvd93.fsf@gnu.org>
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2016-02-05 22:55           ` Drew Adams
     [not found] <<<56B3E874.5000601@verizon.net>
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2016-02-05 20:00       ` Drew Adams
2016-02-05 21:58         ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-02-06 23:17           ` Kevin Gallagher
2016-02-07 15:52             ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-02-05  0:10 Kevin Gallagher
2016-02-05  7:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-02-05 10:31   ` Eli Zaretskii

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