From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Icon designer wanted (Aquamacs Emacs) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:36:35 +0100 Message-ID: <85ek3loaf0.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <54321A2A-3F36-4416-B473-49AC11FF057F@gmail.com> <853bk5gwa8.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <792D87C1-B9A9-495E-9335-7139845D1CB0@gmail.com> <85fyo4zvei.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87sls47lvd.fsf@vh213602.truman.edu> <85wthftsme.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <85mziasu6z.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <851wzmsqcs.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <43BD9505.9070309@student.lu.se> <17342.20339.265831.251364@paperoga.gianoziaorientale.it> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1136552414 5959 80.91.229.2 (6 Jan 2006 13:00:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:00:14 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jan 06 14:00:12 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EurCU-0003mG-5G for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 14:00:10 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EurEF-0005g5-Rz for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 08:02:00 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EuqYc-0000Vq-Dv for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 07:18:58 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EuqXq-0000BP-1V for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 07:18:11 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EuqRd-0006Ih-0G for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 07:11:46 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.164] (helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1EuqTN-0004NQ-7A for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 07:13:33 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lola.goethe.zz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1EuqOD-00025u-4s; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 07:08:13 -0500 Original-Received: by lola.goethe.zz (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 322271C4F93E; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:36:36 +0100 (CET) Original-To: saint@eng.it In-Reply-To: <17342.20339.265831.251364@paperoga.gianoziaorientale.it> (Gian Uberto Lauri's message of "Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:07:31 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:32495 Archived-At: GianUberto.Lauri@eng.it (Gian Uberto Lauri) writes: >> David Kastrup wrote: >>> The ability to craft a pretty MacOSX-only thing from Emacs is part >>> of the value of free software. Doing so exercises the freedom, but >>> it does nothing to sustain it. > > I used to run Mac OS X for about (then I kicked it out, it doesn't fit > my needs) and compile CVS Emacs. I was glad I could use the apple key > as Meta and Alt as super (i do the same with those keyboards with the > flag key). Then a guy I know pointed out Aqua Emacs. I don't use Mac > OS X any more, but gave a look to the site. > > I understand that long time mac users would love it, as does that guy. > > But let those customization be something someone activates only if > he wants them, it's good to put them as default choice, but it has > to be a choice. Personally, I would rather use old vi than the Aqua > Emacs customization, but other people disagrees and everybody must > be free to use the tool the way s?he wants. > > Even if I feel that they loose something not using Emacs the Emacs way. > > CUA and Mac OS X interface are too young and stubborn to have the > wisdom that comes with 30 years of evolution. It should be pointed out that this thread is not about whether or not Aquamacs is a good thing in itself. This is about whether its development should be done in a manner that precludes it ever becoming a part of Emacs. While I agree that it is not a good idea to have different Emacses on different platforms, this could perfectly well addressed by the use of themes: every platform would have its default theme, but the user could tell the Emacs on _any_ platform "please behave like Aquamacs" or "please behave like the Windows Emacs" or "please behave like X11" Emacs. That way, everybody would have platform-specific benefits as well as a tool that can easily be made to work the same across platforms, and carry the behavior of the preferred platform everywhere. At the current point of time, Emacs' customization theme code are not usable enough to make this a viable option. This is likely to change. When it does, having a separate Aquamacs code base that is not legally tenable for reintegration into Emacs will preclude the Aquamacs personality to be available for everyone if he so wishes, even if he is working on Linux or X11. I really don't think incompatible forks something which is desirable in free software. Aquamacs aims to be more than just a private adaptation, and it is a pity that its usefulness gets strictly limited in that manner. I don't like the idea of a non-standard Emacs that can't be easily made to behave like the standard one "out-of-the-box": it is splintering rather than spreading the user base. That's the reason I am not particularly fond about Aquamacs, or bound to recommend it (if people ask me for advice or have problems, I have no clue whether they are due to Aquamacs or Emacs proper). But I certainly acknowledge that in particular beginners on a given platform might be better served with an Emacs version configured to be more closely to what they expect. Encompassing customization themes would appear to be a good way out of that dilemma, giving _everybody_ the option to have Aquamacs-like looks and behavior, regardless of operating system. Once custom themes work well, it would be a pity if Aquamacs' behavior and look could not be made available for everybody on every platform who desired it. And that requires being careful about the legal matter timely. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum