From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: New start up splash screen annoyance... Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 07:55:38 +0200 Message-ID: <85d4wh3kf9.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <87sl5n5yem.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87fy1nbe4f.fsf@jurta.org> <86myvu2zw1.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> <20070912093913.GB12104@saeurebad.de> <87wsuum8qw.fsf@jurta.org> <85abrn9ini.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1190008557 23586 80.91.229.12 (17 Sep 2007 05:55:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 05:55:57 +0000 (UTC) Cc: larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 17 07:55:55 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1IX9aM-00016G-3H for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 07:55:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IX9aL-00006Q-16 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 01:55:53 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IX9aH-000055-Mi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 01:55:49 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IX9aE-0008Tv-5M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 01:55:48 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IX9aE-0008Tq-0Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 01:55:46 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-12.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.52]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1IX9a9-0006xS-8d; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 01:55:41 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-08-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-08-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.20]) by mail-in-12.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A76744D0BC; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 07:55:39 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from mail-in-02.arcor-online.net (mail-in-02.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.42]) by mail-in-08-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9316B212FAF; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 07:55:39 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from lola.goethe.zz (dslb-084-061-059-150.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.61.59.150]) by mail-in-02.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7756C36E864; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 07:55:39 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: by lola.goethe.zz (Postfix, from userid 1002) id A47BD1CDAC0C; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 07:55:38 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Sun\, 16 Sep 2007 20\:20\:38 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1.50 (gnu/linux) X-Detected-Kernel: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:79083 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > That's why I proposed announcing it with a message or tooltip that > persists for a while but does not keep the user from actually working. > > I don't think that's sufficient to reliably inform people, > because it is too indirect. If "reliably informs" means "make sure from the start that they can't do anything useful before reading this and/or taking extra action" you are right. But that also means that nobody (not just newbies) can start doing anything useful unobstructedly on a standard Emacs without customization. We don't want to have this degree of reliability. It is bad, not good for both the image of Emacs and the GNU project. > Someone suggested popping up two frames. That seems worth > considering. > > Anyway, I think we have more to gain from educating the people > who stick with Emacs (and thus will at one point of time get to > see the splash screen) rather than the people who try it a few > times and then give up in disgust. > > Exaggerations like this just make me angry at you, which makes me > less inclined than normally to entertain changes you suggest. Unfortunately, it isn't an exaggeration. It is sad that when everybody tells you the same that you think they must be exaggerating or lying and that you will punish them by ignoring their input. I know several vi aficionados who clearly said that they don't use Emacs since whenever they tried it, it "screwed them over" and thus they decided "they are just not an Emacs person". At one time, the "C-h for help" binding was the ultimate candidate for surprising annoyance. We really don't want to feed the prejudices in that manner: we have come such a long way in the last few years. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum