From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:51:58 +0200 Message-ID: <85bq43xcq9.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <004a01c8a1a0$7215cdd0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <85fxthy4qp.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87hcdxz9zr.fsf_-_@jurta.org> <87ve2cfk9x.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <200804201931.m3KJVO4X008875@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <858wz8ux2w.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <480BA779.2080507@gmail.com> <853apguv0s.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <480BAD5C.4090204@gmail.com> <85prskte96.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <480BB8C0.4020303@gmail.com> <85abjnu5ss.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <480C31B9.6060900@gmail.com> <480CC3AD.1050403@gmail.com> <85mynnxhuh.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <480CD2D1.1020003@gmail.com> <878wz7xdgb.fsf@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1208804036 11225 80.91.229.12 (21 Apr 2008 18:53:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:53:56 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, cyd@stupidchicken.com, "Lennart Borgman \(gmail\)" , emacs-devel@gnu.org, juri@jurta.org, ams@gnu.org, dann@ics.uci.edu, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, drew.adams@oracle.com To: Paul R Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 21 20:54:29 2008 connect(): Connection refused Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Jo19Y-0006Gl-Tr for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:54:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jo18r-0004WA-Uh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:53:29 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jo18n-0004Vx-JZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:53:25 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jo18V-0004UN-J1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:53:25 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jo18V-0004UK-CC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:53:07 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-16.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.56]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Jo17s-0001HF-2H; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:52:35 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-07-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-07-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.19]) by mail-in-16.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0FCD1F7278; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:52:03 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from mail-in-16.arcor-online.net (mail-in-16.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.56]) by mail-in-07-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA08D2C8BA0; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:52:03 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from lola.goethe.zz (dslb-084-061-038-079.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.61.38.79]) by mail-in-16.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79D4A236E63; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:52:03 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: by lola.goethe.zz (Postfix, from userid 1002) id AA6011C3C7BC; Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:51:58 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <878wz7xdgb.fsf@gmail.com> (Paul R.'s message of "Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:36:20 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.92.1/6865/Mon Apr 21 17:43:29 2008 on mail-in-16.arcor-online.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:95672 Archived-At: Paul R writes: > "Alfred M. Szmidt" writes: > >> How about talking about users in general, not only new users use >> emacs, emacs should have good defaults for both new and old users. > > If they had the same expectations, yes. But they are often > incompatibles. In such a case, new users expectations should take > precedence, simply because : > - new users might give up because they don't realize that what they > don't like is only a default setting, not inherent to the emacs > program itself > - old user know how to change a simple setting in 30 seconds Expectations should never take precedence when they are connected with an inferior way to accomplish things. As an example: I can explain Emacs' general mouse cut/copy/paste interface in 4 lines of text: Single/double/triple left mouse clicks mark character/word/line start respectively of the region. Dragging or single right mouse click marks the other end, double right mouse click deletes the region. In either case, middle mouse pastes the previous region contents. That's simple, efficient, and not what the new user expects. It would be stupid to hide this very ergonomic mouse behavior away in a non-default setting: Emacs is such a large beast that people can be expected to discover about 5% of its non-defaults in their life time. We don't want to make Emacs an efficient editor only for those who knew Emacs-19 and can reconfigure all insanities back to more efficient defaults. After all: new users might give up because they don't realize that what fails to make them more efficient than when using other editors is only a default setting, not inherent to the emacs program itself. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum