From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad brown Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 23:47:37 -0700 Message-ID: <859A313B-96D2-4C06-945A-3275BA2A7C0B@gmail.com> References: <87h9cdmj6t.fsf@delle7240.chemeng.ucl.ac.uk> <87eg7f13re.fsf@delle7240.chemeng.ucl.ac.uk> <921c10a04c17462988c2821ed40582e7@DB5PR01MB1895.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com> <87oa6byyud.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> <33003e1e02b04d2db5ee60baff9a040f@HE1PR01MB1898.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com> <87furk71zs.fsf@pinto.chemeng.ucl.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1468133286 10324 80.91.229.3 (10 Jul 2016 06:48:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 06:48:06 +0000 (UTC) To: Richard Stallman , emacs-devel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 10 08:48:01 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bM8X0-0000zA-Nn for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 08:47:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53606 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bM8Ww-0001Ia-Qo for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 02:47:54 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:55682) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bM8Wq-0001IR-J9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 02:47:49 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bM8Wo-0007Zb-Hp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 02:47:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf0-x22c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22c]:32790) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bM8Wj-0007Z2-IZ; Sun, 10 Jul 2016 02:47:41 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id i123so25549057pfg.0; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 23:47:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=dVqdTeSTSivIbGPiDYyCsyKLpFNbE/wX/kNZetWItIo=; b=IZdtExCXyWVF3gxAE/PjFinFHq3BCKQh9gpYeS3A9TMocrrkM7mNT2fOJu3wPm8VFd oDd3j107yGeEtEWwHv+85caq5mtwhNk+lHjj8ysN6fvhp0aTwwEwfGuKU7ANLAVpOCsx +1YRxfME5BIu0YcRRagnj2hCXZOf1kcKjx1cW/D1UzvnB2sBz5EHq6XafyO6Rw8MdV7d 1xyeTbhGzsQc/EQRVaKjCCJSaT//H7SLH91kPkGulMfw/zyubroubwWUz7xRhav6UPiZ JZElduNaiF6mcGGteA6e45ZKz7pZ2ALRFzWpxFq2jp888CK+AdQ2/BRMWrwI0NOFJIp2 Bdjw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=dVqdTeSTSivIbGPiDYyCsyKLpFNbE/wX/kNZetWItIo=; b=PrA2V78APbybxXHfTbAIn/xNZtGc/9SHemiUuBdattbisqzIyJvUB1hTDfh+5f71PJ L7kIgGM/xZQFUXtyMemgjMnFzY2yeXRvyQkdt7cao/PzBUm+GRFOLppUBz24B0vj+0Od FM5H/o7rsqqmfmh5LkPS6tgPHEAOj5fpXnm6B/bmxcjlvFNExoPHzZVF8VqFARdUt2n6 FcGtMSOWhUFghiAZx7QaqQvF2prrrp0dR+u+aVy8TH2gka9uJWNII/ocMos/9M73XuF6 I4z0RMaLU36WQZfo2YRpmtWannBwQJmvHwo4nxvucFjAVz0LhQay3ZGnQQItBIxpKfMs Ebiw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIFd0oIR3TWU/Js7eFrPSbGVLa3y7GJHSrmbnJ76dJ+Mwac3cBeo7tHUkpHvPC6wg== X-Received: by 10.98.158.78 with SMTP id s75mr16000058pfd.137.1468133260313; Sat, 09 Jul 2016 23:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.18] (c-73-97-209-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [73.97.209.57]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w63sm1157018pfi.9.2016.07.09.23.47.38 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Jul 2016 23:47:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22c X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:205486 Archived-At: > On 09 Jul 2016, at 09:56, Richard Stallman wrote: > [=E2=80=A6] > That seems like a very high-power form of usage. > I think the fraction of users who would do things like this > must be rather small. Org is primarily a system for taking and managing notes in Emacs (especially but not exclusively structured notes like task lists and instruction steps). People use it for outlines (from whence it was born), but also for research notes, papers, and books, among other things. Over the years, it has grown extra support for things like exporting to various presentation formats like PDF, print, and the web; for including marked-up, live, and/or runnable =E2=80=9Cchunks=E2=80=9D of = types other than plain text (live-calculating tables, runnable code examples, live-computed graphs from external sources); and for importing (called =E2=80=9Ccapturing=E2=80=9D) bits from external sources like web = browsers and PDFs. Each of these extra pieces was added to address a desire to manage more things using Emacs. I do understand that looking at a (long!) list of org-related packages, or looking at a (similarly long) list of org-related features, it does seem like (for example) many of those importing or exporting features could have been general Emacs features instead of org-specific features. In some of those cases, this is almost certainly true, but the practice is a bit more nuanced, because usually those org features are glue between existing Emacs features and the org structure that makes it easy for everything to work together inside org (and also work inside Emacs without org). Put another way: there are many parts of Emacs (outside org) that let one use Emacs to interface with other parts of the world (both import and export). Org provides a way to put *those* parts together, in a manner that is both (relatively) simple and coherent. *I believe* this is why there=E2=80=99s so much misunderstanding on this topic: while it=E2=80=99s undoubtedly true that the software design of = org could be improved in hindsight, it=E2=80=99s very hard for the people = deeply involved in the org parts to see how the =E2=80=9Cglue that lets you = combine many disparate parts into one unifying structured approach=E2=80=9D = could (much less =E2=80=9Cshould=E2=80=9D) have been designed as separate = parts. I hope that helps, ~Chad