From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Why Emacs needs a modern bug tracker Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 23:05:17 +0100 Message-ID: <858x34kjxe.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <20080104164454.0A4BD830697@snark.thyrsus.com> <20080104232514.GB2735@muc.de> <87r6gxoyjv.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <4pds0zz4.fsf@telefonica.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1199570743 13288 80.91.229.12 (5 Jan 2008 22:05:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 22:05:43 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3scar?= Fuentes Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 05 23:05:59 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JBH96-0008Dk-Jx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 05 Jan 2008 23:05:50 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBH8c-0006Am-S5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:05:06 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JBH8Z-0006Ab-Il for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:05:03 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JBH8T-00068z-Qy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:05:02 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JBH8T-00068e-DU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:04:57 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-in-01.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.41]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JBH8R-0003RQ-6Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:04:56 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-in-02-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-02-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.14]) by mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7329E103941; Sat, 5 Jan 2008 23:04:30 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (mail-in-01.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.41]) by mail-in-02-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 671551143C9; Sat, 5 Jan 2008 23:04:30 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from lola.goethe.zz (dslb-084-061-039-009.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.61.39.9]) by mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22593103997; Sat, 5 Jan 2008 23:04:16 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: by lola.goethe.zz (Postfix, from userid 1002) id BB4131CCF7AE; Sat, 5 Jan 2008 23:05:17 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <4pds0zz4.fsf@telefonica.net> (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22=D3scar?= Fuentes"'s message of "Sat, 05 Jan 2008 21:38:55 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/5378/Sat Jan 5 20:51:02 2008 on mail-in-01.arcor-online.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:86239 Archived-At: =D3scar Fuentes writes: > Eli Zaretskii writes: > >>> > Not just evidence: you should volunteer to do actual work. >>> [snip] >>>=20 >>> ESR volunteered for implementing the DVCS and the bug-tracker. I >>> volunteered for spam-filtering and monitoring the bug-tracker. I can do >>> other misc things, such as pre-testing the system and later assist other >>> users on its use. >> >> Yes, I know. But -- and please forgive me for being so blunt -- I >> have enough grey hair to remember a few instances in the past where >> people with good intentions said things like that. Sadly, intentions >> are all we are left with to this day. >> >> I want to see some action, in addition to good intentions and more >> talking. > > You have experience dealing with ESR. Don't you trust him? Well, the most recent experience is the VC reorganisation which was checked into the trunk in a non-finished state and then left in the lurch for others to sort out themselves for about half a year. However this may have come about, it is not a workflow that really inspires confidence in the procedures and communication needed for people in charge of important subsystems, in particular if one calls for faster releases. I can't blame Eli for being sceptical about the wisdom of introducing more single points of failure hinging on a one-person effort. So the question remains: where do we all (not just ESR) want to go, and will others be able to pick up the slack in case that ESR has to drop the ball for some reason? > I think that the reimplementation of VC that ESR just accomplished > involves an amount of work of the same order than implementing the > systems he proposed. I never was involved with ESR, but his offer > seems pretty credible to me. The VC reorganization still appears to be an ongoing effort right now. >>> The advantages of a living database over a static text file are too >>> large to enumerate. >> >> But the advantage of the flat text file is that it exists. > > Seriously, I don't understand your attitude. Is like somebody were > asking you to take some risk. Introducing a new dependency for working is a risk. If people stop reporting bugs in the current way, one has to change the workflow of the potential bugfixers. Not all of them will do this. If stuff gets stuck, one can't easily return to the old way of doing things since a different report-emacs-bug would already be out in the wild. --=20 David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum