Should `describe-face' have a global binding? Should C-h i be a choice in C-h C-h?

Should `describe-face' have a global binding? Should C-h i be a choice in C-h C-h?

[Drew Adams]

1. The `C-h...' commands are one of the main entries to information, and to
customize, as well. Shouldn't users be able to find `describe-face' when
they do `C-h C-h'?

I don't have a great suggestion for the C-h binding. (Perhaps `T' for
"typeface"?)

2. Shouldn't `C-h i' be in the `C-h C-h' list? Granted, it is not for quick
help, but I see `C-h C-h' as I kind of help entry menu, and `C-h i' is an
important entry point.

Re: Should `describe-face' have a global binding? Should C-h i be a choice in C-h C-h?

[Richard Stallman]

    1. The `C-h...' commands are one of the main entries to information, and to
    customize, as well. Shouldn't users be able to find `describe-face' when
    they do `C-h C-h'?

Yes, if we can figure out a binding for it.

    I don't have a great suggestion for the C-h binding. (Perhaps `T' for
    "typeface"?)

For coherence, it should be a lower-case letter.  The available ones
are g, o, u, x, y, z.  None seems particularly approproate, but
perhaps g is a little better than the others since it can stand for
"graphics".

Would someone like to do this, and ack?

    2. Shouldn't `C-h i' be in the `C-h C-h' list? Granted, it is not for quick
    help, but I see `C-h C-h' as I kind of help entry menu, and `C-h i' is an
    important entry point.

It is already in the list, looks like.

RE: Should `describe-face' have a global binding? Should C-h i be achoice in C-h C-h?

[Drew Adams]

        2. Shouldn't `C-h i' be in the `C-h C-h' list? Granted, it
        is not for quick
        help, but I see `C-h C-h' as I kind of help entry menu, and
        `C-h i' is an
        important entry point.

    It is already in the list, looks like.

Right. My bad - didn't notice it.

BTW, I'm not sure "read online manuals" is appropriate, given the modern
meaning of "online" as connected to the Internet or an intranet (or some
network). Perhaps "read hypertext manuals"? Or just "read manuals" - no one
would expect to use `C-h i' to read hard-copy manuals ;-).

Re: Should `describe-face' have a global binding? Should C-h i be achoice in C-h C-h?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 09:22:32 -0700
> 
> BTW, I'm not sure "read online manuals" is appropriate, given the modern
> meaning of "online" as connected to the Internet or an intranet (or some
> network). Perhaps "read hypertext manuals"? Or just "read manuals" - no one
> would expect to use `C-h i' to read hard-copy manuals ;-).

How about "read manuals installed on your system", or "read installed
manuals"?

Re: Should `describe-face' have a global binding? Should C-h i be achoice in C-h C-h?

[David Kastrup]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>
>> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 09:22:32 -0700
>> 
>> BTW, I'm not sure "read online manuals" is appropriate, given the modern
>> meaning of "online" as connected to the Internet or an intranet (or some
>> network). Perhaps "read hypertext manuals"? Or just "read manuals" - no one
>> would expect to use `C-h i' to read hard-copy manuals ;-).
>
> How about "read manuals installed on your system", or "read installed
> manuals"?

Possible, but I copy Drew's opinion that people will hardly expect to
get hardcopy.

However, they might expect to get a PDF reader or similar (which would
be nearly as inconvenient), so one might want to qualify with "read
hypertext manuals", if at all.

However, this has the disadvantage of being techno-babble and not
inviting to the average user.  To bring across the hypertext notion,
another possibility would be

"browse manuals".  It still might make the user think that this will
start an HTML browser, but what actually happens will hopefully not be
too far off the expectations.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Should `describe-face' have a global binding? Should C-h i be achoice in C-h C-h?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 21:57:38 +0200
> 
> > How about "read manuals installed on your system", or "read installed
> > manuals"?
> 
> Possible, but I copy Drew's opinion that people will hardly expect to
> get hardcopy.

I suggested "installed" because that is the real meaning of "online"
in the original text.  Hardcopy has nothing to do with this.

> However, they might expect to get a PDF reader or similar (which would
> be nearly as inconvenient), so one might want to qualify with "read
> hypertext manuals", if at all.

PDF format is also hypertext, so strictly speaking "hypertext" doesn't
exclude PDF.

Re: Should `describe-face' have a global binding? Should C-h i be achoice in C-h C-h?

[David Kastrup]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Cc: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
>> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 21:57:38 +0200
>> 
>> > How about "read manuals installed on your system", or "read
>> > installed manuals"?
>> 
>> Possible, but I copy Drew's opinion that people will hardly expect
>> to get hardcopy.
>
> I suggested "installed" because that is the real meaning of "online"
> in the original text.  Hardcopy has nothing to do with this.
>
>> However, they might expect to get a PDF reader or similar (which
>> would be nearly as inconvenient), so one might want to qualify with
>> "read hypertext manuals", if at all.
>
> PDF format is also hypertext, so strictly speaking "hypertext"
> doesn't exclude PDF.

I don't think our main task is to prove to the user that we are
smarter than he is.

I think "Browse manuals" is short and accurate enough to convey the
intent.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Should `describe-face' have a global binding? Should C-h i be a choice in C-h C-h?

[Kevin Rodgers]

Richard Stallman wrote:
>     1. The `C-h...' commands are one of the main entries to information, and to
>     customize, as well. Shouldn't users be able to find `describe-face' when
>     they do `C-h C-h'?
> 
> Yes, if we can figure out a binding for it.
> 
>     I don't have a great suggestion for the C-h binding. (Perhaps `T' for
>     "typeface"?)
> 
> For coherence, it should be a lower-case letter.  The available ones
> are g, o, u, x, y, z.  None seems particularly approproate, but
> perhaps g is a little better than the others since it can stand for
> "graphics".

`o' might be a good choice, since the facemenu commands are bound to
`M-o' prefixed keys.  (If I recall, it used to be `M-g'.)

-- 
Kevin

Re: Should `describe-face' have a global binding? Should C-h i be a choice in C-h C-h?

[Richard Stallman]

    > For coherence, it should be a lower-case letter.  The available ones
    > are g, o, u, x, y, z.  None seems particularly approproate, but
    > perhaps g is a little better than the others since it can stand for
    > "graphics".

    `o' might be a good choice, since the facemenu commands are bound to
    `M-o' prefixed keys.  (If I recall, it used to be `M-g'.)

That is a good point.  Ok, let's use o.